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| [#7682] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 Hitler was initially being perceived as sort of a national hero...until his ambitions get on top of his has where he started to invade the neighbouring countries as well as his treatment towardsd the Jews... As such,to judge Nazi's as well as Hitlers, there is a need to evaluate based on which specific period and years..in order to provide a fair assessment of the political as well historical incidents... |
maxbliss888 正式會員203.xxx.xxx.156 |
2008-01-15 21:00 | |
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| [#7683] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 George... Hmm, we seems to have no major disagreement on Furtwangler. For Karajan, I think he is a true opportunist. He joined the Nazi for his career. This is why I looked down on him as a person. We can all have stance. I respect Karl Bohm as he took stance for his own belief. As for why Karajan was not sentenced for being a Nazi, I believe Wikipedia has part of the answer if Iremember correctly. However, it should be a "No" if you think Nazi did not favor his playing. |
BenYC 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.141 |
2008-01-15 21:36 |
| [#7684] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox Allow me, at this juncture, to respond to George1977's message a few days ago on 08-01-12 12:39 in this thread. This is my 1994 VoxBox double-CD set (CDX 5120).  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 22:03 |
| [#7685] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox I also have the same recordings of Oistrakh / Richter playing the Shostakovich and the Franck violin sonatas on subsequent Melodiya reissues.  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 22:05 |
| [#7686] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox In both the 2006 made-in-Korea Melodiya / Aulos CD, and the 206 made-in-Russia Melodiya CD, the volume is set higher than the VoxBox. At times the sound is somewhat ear-piercing, nonetheless it's nice to have the 1969 recordings coming through so clearly.  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 22:07 |
| [#7687] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox To go back to the VoxBox set, its transfers, though not as loud as the Melodiya's, benefit from a firmer, more solidified utterance. One tunes in to the lower volume soon enough, and will be thankful for the unambitious approach in restoration. Another attraction of this pair of VoxBox CDs is these words in their inner rings: MFD BY JVC, well, whatever they mean.  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 22:09 |
| [#7688] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 BenYC, maxbliss888 and ocean I must firstly clarify that Furtwangler, Karajan and Bohm are all my beloved and respected conductors, if you check my previous posts I have highly recommended Furtwangler's reading of Beethoven Symphony No.9 in 1955, a live recording for Lucrene Festival in numerous occasions, apart from his legendary 1951 Bayreuth Festival live re-opening concert. Both Karajan and Bohm were not sentenced for being a Nazi supporter and party member, why? simply because they were not high profile artist enough during the third reich period. Furtwangler was unfortunately caught by those photos which showed his presence with Hitler and other Nazi high rank officials, even we know that Furtwangler was actually unwilling to attend this kind of political gathering but for the survival of BPO, he did it repeatedly in order to gain the financial support from Nazi government and to protect the jewish members against political persecution , Did music lovers blame him at all and perceive him as a holocaust supporter of Nazi regime? I dun think so...he is actually a noble humanitarian. In the era of third reich, Hitler particularly linked music with his racial supremacy and right-wing extremism, Wagner and Bruckner become his favourable composers, how innocent this great composer they were! That why I still could not comprehend why Jewish still boycott Wagner's works until nowadays. May be Wagner had made some anti-semitism remark against Jews, but is it necessary and worthy to boycott his masterpieces? BenYC You could keep showing your contempt against Karajan because of his opportunistic behaviour in his early year, but you simply could not deny his unshakable historical status just because he joined Nazi party for a job. Surely you can look down him personally because of his utilitarian (rather than altruism as good as Furtwangler). I truly believe that he spent his time on music score as a musician instead of ridiculous political agenda as a fervent and high profile Nazi member. As Nazi regime, a totalitarian state, manipulated all political, economic, social and cultural resources during their administration, a native german either left Germany as an opponent(such like Erich Kleiber fled to South America) or got used to the system as a patriot. That why I fully understand why Karl Bohm yelled "Thousand years for Hitler" or Karajan joined the Nazi party, should both of them be accountable for the utter ferocity and the miserable holocaust of Jews? I dun think so.... Think about how the old generation of chinese lived in Cultural Revolution 30 years ago, then you will understand what I am saying. Sometimes you are forced to do something against your will when there is no alternative choice. George |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 22:48 |
| [#7689] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox Trollope Thank for your delicate photos and detailed elaboration! I I seek to purchase the following albums but fully hesitated by its unreasonable price at HK$660 in Shun Cheong, do you own the following album? Please share with us if you own the following album! million thanks! George |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 23:05 |
| [#7690] Oistrakh & Richter on VoxBox Sorry not to paste the photo, photo now reattached!  |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 23:06 |
| [#7691] SHM-CD UCCG-9711  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 23:16 |
| [#7692] SHM-CD 新素材, we are told.  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 23:17 |
| [#7693] SHM-CD November 2007 limited first SHM-CD edition of Richter's Rach2 and Tch1 with Wislocki and Karajan. I have just A/B blind-tested it with the 1995 "The Originals" (447 420-2) edition. 結果精粗立判，輕易聽得出 SHM-CD 版的音質較為綿密厚重而又不失通透，入水能穸X水能跳，聽 Tch1 尤覺大江浩翰，麗句不絕。初步印象，SHM-CD 低頻的實淨程度，更在 XRCD24 之上。 Among the handful of these SHM-CDs I saw a few days ago, this was the only temptation to which I yielded. It requires no less than a spending orgy for me to buy a few more, after which I will be living in utter penury.  |
trollope 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.133 |
2008-01-15 23:20 |
| [#7694] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 George, I do comtempt Karajan as a person. There is an interesting book titled "The Maestro Myth" by Norman Lebrecht which kind of recap how he gained popularity in comparison to other great conductors of his age. I should go no further on this. As for his music, I did expressed several times that I like some of his works. However, I also find many of his phrasing not to my liking. He tended to link a lot of melody together without cut. This Karajan sound nature can be annoying for some works. Yet, his place in the music history is requestionable. I got a bit over reacted when people associated Furtwangler with Nazi but not Karajan. This somehow this click my button.... Yup. I like Furtwangler much. My post was never meant inflict hard feelings or to lure heated debates. I apologize for the evil side getting to me. Cheers. |
BenYC 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.141 |
2008-01-15 23:22 |
| [#7695] SHM-CD Trollope, I am still waiting for discplus at times square to call me for the arrival of SHM-CD including Richter's CD of playing Rachmaninov's piano concerto No.2 / Tchaikovsky piano concerto No.1. (others including Karajan conducts Beethoven Symphony No.9 and Carlos Kleiber conducts Beethoven Symphony No.5) HK$ 250 each, not cheap ga! thanks for your audition report! George |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 23:24 |
| [#7696] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 Hi! George Basically, I share the similar views with you.. When we assess the situation at that time,we have to bear in mind that it was a period of chaos and uncertainties, the mixture of nationalism and extremism. With the total control of the mass media and communication, it made it even more difficult for individual to make any freedom of choice. Nazi party also consists of thousands and thousands of people. Some may joined owing to patriotism and loyalty..Other may be "forced"to join. Similarly, what started up as a party to uplift the political status of Germany after suffering the humiliation and loss of land owing to the 1914 Treaty of Versaillies.. In the end, what happened has happened.When we evaluate the Karajan,we need to bear in mind the question of whether he has committed heavy and serious war crimes? Being in the party may not necessary means involving in the various illegitimate activities.. Just my two cents... |
maxbliss888 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.202 |
2008-01-15 23:27 |
| [#7697] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 Ben YC I appreciate your positive response! I dun care whether people like Karajan or not, even you criticise him as a hypocrite or an opportunist, I just care whether music lover could fairly assess his music interpretation by benchmarking or style discussion. I feel pity that Furtwangler had such a miserable treatment from the Allied powers after 1945 but this was indeed a political trial instead of fair hearing on the basis of fact and motive. His unfair fate deserve my utmost respect and salute, I think that we have consensus that Furtwangler has a much spontaneous, humane and spiritual rendition than Karajan in every aspect. As my previous posts repeatedly emphasize, Karajan was undeniably great if you listen his readings in Richard Strauss, Wagner, Prokofiev, Schoenberg, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner, whether his early or late years, I aver your observation that he tried to link melodies and phrase endlessly without cut / stoppage / space for breath, string was luscious and utterly rich, this is the so-called "karajan sound", a feature even his student Seiji Ozawa inherits most. (please listen his prokofiev boxset, you will know what I am saying) Sorry that I am not intended to paste the photo of this cover, Furtwangler was a tragic figure during second world war, I do cherish every piece of his recording even the cover itself is not politically incorrect! But Ben YC, Let face the history and truth! Even Furtwangler hugged with Hitler, he still deserve my salute and utmost respect. George |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 23:41 |
| [#7698] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 BenYC Try to read the book about Karajan written by Richard Osborne. If you feel interesting, try to watch the film of "Taking Sides", a film talking about Furtwangler receiving the inquiry of de-nazification committee during 1946-48, I was overwhelmed of his self-clarification against the pro-Nazi accusation. He is a genuine man with shoulder and backbone George  |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-15 23:49 |
| [#7699] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 Maxbliss888, Agreed! When you chose to stay in a society under totalitarian / autocratic administration, or your freedom of choice are exploited, you have no choice at all but to do something against your willingness and beyond morality bottomline. Even Nazi had some good guy if you ever watched the flim of Schindler's List and a recent program bout Nanking Massacre, the messiah were two Nazi party members and simply reflect your remark that "Being in the party may not necessary means involving i nthe various illegitimate activities"! Oh we better stop here, too many history topic instead of music! George |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-16 00:06 |
| [#7700] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 George, Thanks for the tip. I did browse thru the Osborne book. However, I never noticed there is such a movie on Furtwangler. Should be fun to watch. Cheers. |
BenYC 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.141 |
2008-01-16 00:14 |
| [#7701] When Furtwangler met Hitler in 1942 BenYC not at all! but you got to order it via either amazon or HMV, most mega chain store dun stock this DVD but accept special order! A film really tribute to maestro furtwangler! George  |
george1977 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.24 |
2008-01-16 00:18 |
