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| [#1826] Beethoven Symphony No.9 If Bruckner were alive, I am sure he would not say he's superior to Beethoven. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Of course not, DJ. Bruckner was a most humble man. He had a miserable music life as his works were ignored by most of the public and rediculed by many of the music critics for much of his life. His humiliation was partly, or mostly, a result of his lunatic adoration of Wagner, as in those days Vienna was an armed camp between the Wagnerites and the anti-Wagnerites (Brahms). He would stare for hours at his idol in silent worship before screwing up enough courage to approach him. After hearing the Parsifal, Bruckner, not as an impressionable, hero-worshipping kid but rather a mature 57-year-old man, fell on his knees before Wagner, murmuring "Master, I adore you!" He even tipped the famous Hans Richter after his conducting the most successful premiere of his 4th symphony with a coin, saying "Take it, and drink a mug of beer to my health". His lack of sophistication is just legendary. Perhaps his only consolation was a compliment from Wagner who called him the only symphonist comparable to Beethoven, which could be just a feud against the Brahms camp! |
cpsjj 正式會員219.xxx.xxx.125 |
2007-09-18 21:38 | |
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| [#1827] Beethoven Symphony No.9 Morning Gentlemen: An interesting discussion between cpsjj and doctojohn! Bruckner for me was a humble, shy and religious composer who devoted his time, faith and energy to glorify his god by the mean of several great symphonies. Bruckner once sought the King of Austria to pacify those anti-wagner camp which maliciously attacked Wagner and Bruckner (especially the conversative critic Hanslick who admired Brahms and Beethoven most) because he was too shy to shun Hanslick in the public occasion. Bruckner also frequently compromised to allow others (conductors and music scholars) to revise his works multiple times in order to seek the debut or public performance, versions of Haas and Nowak for several symphonies therefore appeared, Haas version is however widely regarded as the most faithful to Bruckner's intention because of fewer amendments . Beethoven was, I opine,an aggressive and self-righteous rock star at that conventional viennese society, radically subverted and overthrown the fundamental concept of classicalism laid down by Haydn and Mozart after his "Eroica" symphony finished, the era of romanticism gradually commenced. I will later share a link for your guys reading some articles about these prestigious composers. George1977 |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 09:16 |
| [#1828] Beethoven Symphony No.9 早晨... 音樂上的巴哈、貝多芬、華格納、布魯克納、馬勒... 令我聯想到哲學上的康德、叔本華、尼采... 一個令人不敢輕視的日耳曼民族。 |
邊個邊個 正式會員 158.xxx.xxx.114 |
2007-09-19 09:27 |
| [#1829] Karajan's Turandot Puccini: Turandot Ricciarelli, Domingo, Hendricks, Raimondi Wiener Philharmoniker Herbert von Karajan DG 423 855-2 (2 CD) 有翻過發燒雜誌的各位，應該知道Puccini歌劇的發燒天碟，有卡拉揚在Decca的波希米亞人及蝴蝶夫人，杜蘭朵的發燒碟卻是Mehta那套（也是Decca）。不知何解，我一向都對Mehta那個錄音有保留。 因為喜歡這套。維也納愛樂的弦樂，當然好過Mehta的倫敦愛樂，就連不聞名的銅樂，聽來也沒有Decca的硬。不諱言是偏見，比較喜歡Domingo（Mehta那邊是Pavarotti），這堨咢atia Ricciarelli唱Turandot，頗大爭議，但慣常用的戲劇女高音，就唱不出那種冰雪及年輕感覺，單從這CD來說，我接受選用Ricciarelli。 另外就是Ping Pang Pong了，DG連這三個小角也出動猛人唱（Hornik, Zednik, Araiza），Zednik的Mime式演唱，聽慣指環的不會陌生。他們一出場就蠻佻皮的，Mehta那邊就較平凡。至於爆棚位，包括第一幕頭尾，第二幕男女主角的對唱，及第三幕Liu自殺及結尾。現在歌劇少在錄音室錄製，多數在現場錄影，但前者的好處，是可以用整隊樂隊錄，歌劇院是不會用大樂隊伴奏的。無論你是喜歡Mehta或卡拉揚，這種歌劇錄音可謂絕後，在DVD甚至在歌劇院，你都不會聽到這種華麗的弦樂，以及去到盡的銅管。 抱歉又要提醒，或者就當作我的小懺悔：請開大聲一點。。這個錄音，如果以大禾花中價版，或雙碟裝單碟價翻出，請試一試。  |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 10:34 |
| [#1830] Barenboim's Mahler No.9 Mahler: Symphony No.9 Staatskapelle Berlin Daniel Barenboim Warner Classics 256464316-2 (CD) 首先多謝 Oscarwilde 借他CD比我寫review! 我在想這可能是Bruno Walter 1938年VPO的錄音以來最刺激的馬勒第九。我一向反對單從樂章的演奏時間，總結出不同錄音的分別，因為一個樂章或有不同速度，而演奏者不一定依同樣比例處理快慢。即是說就算快的樂段偏快，不代表他們在慢的樂段也偏快，可以是快時很快，慢時很慢，也可能快慢之間的分別不大。馬勒第九的第一樂章，單從這個角度分析不同錄音，也可是一大工程。 這堛熔臚@樂章長廿六分半，看來不算很快，但巴倫邦的快慢對比大。為甚麼晚年伯恩斯坦在這樂曲同樣快慢對比大，但演奏時間長好幾分鐘？是因為他慢時拖得很慢，快時只是一般的快。巴倫邦為快樂段選擇偏快的速度，是決勝關鍵，因為他不用將慢樂段拖得很慢，就能營造對比。 第一個不要期望愈大的原因：Staatskapelle Berlin終究不是柏林或維也納愛樂，粗獷的演奏，奏出較粗的音色。柏林及維也納愛樂之所以為樂隊典範，就是因為他們無論快慢粗幼，都能維持優美的音色。雖說粗獷，卻不等於粗枝大葉，如果你拿@樂譜聽，定會發現不少平時看漏的細節，尤其是低音大提琴的頓音及低音單簧管的blast。這些細節，在第二及第三樂章最多。前衛音樂旗手如Boulez或Gielen也能帶出馬勒的細節，但感情不足(not sentimental but rational!)是致命傷。感情之外，巴倫邦似乎連細節的處理也較他們優勝。 第二個不要期望愈大的原因：人人都有自己的馬勒第九，又或者說，沒有公認最好的馬勒第九。卡拉揚的數碼版常被雜誌選為參考版本，其實很多人都暗地堣牊鵅A深信自己的最愛才是最激最盡 。所以，如果你看到這媟Q立刻入貨，再三提醒你：希望愈大失望愈大。 再插一句話：如果柏林愛樂選的是巴倫邦 (Barenboim)，而不是拉圖 (Rattle)，會是甚麼世界呢？  |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 10:56 |
| [#1831] Karajan's Turandot IT's fascinating george1977 is so much into opera! I'm not an opera fanatic, but from time to time I'd take time to listen to one in 1 go. My favoite series is the DECCA 2-4-1 budget series. Cheap but usually excellent, recordings from the golden era. I also prefer the DECCA opera sound in general, as it renders ambience better. TURANDOT is also one of my favorites. The Mehta is indeed a benchmark. This Karajan I don't have but now shall investigate one day. I've never understood why people belittle Karajan. Sometimes I believe it's because they are too influenced by remarks on the internet. Karajan as an opera conductor is a GRANDMASTER. Through his long recording career, he has produced more than his share of great opera recordings, and very very few outright lemons. One can think of Rosenkavalier, Wagner operas, La Boheme, Aida etc. Opera brings the sensual aspect of Karajan to the fore. In most of his recordings, one can definitely hear this in the orchestra! It's not the most facile, and vulgar, kind of love. A more sophisticated, and detailed, soundscape, as important as the (sometimes less important) singers he chose to put into his world, for his is a total concept. Turandot fans should not miss the historical Eva Turner/Barbirolli performance. There's another great opera conductor! But it's sadly out-of-print (though the material is in a PEARL Eva Turner box it seems)  |
doctorjohn 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.101 |
2007-09-19 11:07 |
| [#1832] Beethoven S#9 Thanks for all the advices. I like this piece a lot but did not realise the significance of it until now. I guess true beauty will show its charm naturally without shouting out how good/complicated it is. Some of the recommendation is indeed eye opening. I did not even realize they ever exists.... cpsjj: Furtwangler's 1951 live recording conducting the Bayreuth Festival Orchestra with Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elisabeth Hongen, Otto Edelmann and Hans Hopf. - Wow... What label is it on? I hope to get one if possible. |
BenYC 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.178 |
2007-09-19 11:13 |
| [#1833] Beethoven S#9 george1977: This OscarWilde seems like a classical lover's dream friend! :-) Thank you for the review on the Pletnev/Beethoven, so soon after yumcha! Now I must hear it. Judging by your review, it shall soon appear in second-hand CD shops! :-) |
doctorjohn 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.101 |
2007-09-19 11:39 |
| [#1834] Beethoven S#9 BenYC, The label is EMI. There are quite a number of reissues - art, grandmaster, best 100 etc. so it is not difficult to find at all. If the authoritativeness of one's comment is measured by the number of copies one has, then I must claim myself an expert of Turandot. Unfortunately there's nothing further away from truth.:-) My favourite Turandot is the Nilsson/Corelli/Scotto combo here. Pavarotti's Nessun Dorma is the classic, he's sweet, warm and sunny, much comfortable to the ear; but Corelli is more lyrical and sang the way this aria should be sung. Nilsson is no doubt the irreplaceable ice princess.  |
cpsjj 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.124 |
2007-09-19 11:54 |
| [#1835] Beethoven S#9 Doctorjohn: Thanks for your input about that mono Turandot and your defence about Karajan whom is attacked most. People who belittle Karajan, I guess, either dislike his flamboyant living style or disagree with his utter "polishing" treatment [Karajan Sound] on some baroque/classicalism works. Yet I totally agree with you that Karajan had given us some of his best effort to rejuvenate those romanticism operatic works with his unique insight and viennese charm, particularly those EMI recordings in 1950-60's, his accounts in Richard Strauss, Verdi Wagner, Puccini masterpieces are mostly lengardary and a class of his own! irreplaceable indeed! That pletnev's beethoven boxset spent me three nights to listen and to write the comment side-by-side, it might not be your cup of tea if you favour a slightly romantic style and old german school interpretation! Oscarwilde is my close friend who inspired me a lot about classical music and generously lent me the disc, he is also a fan of oscar wilde, he bought me Wilde's novel "The Picture of Dorian Gray" for my reading! Nice chap! George1977 |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 12:23 |
| [#1837] Beethoven S#9 cpsjj: What a cast! I must borrow and listen...I love Franco Corelli too! BenYC: It's now available at sale price! Grab one at Pro Sound!  |
doctorjohn 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.101 |
2007-09-19 12:36 |
| [#1838] Beethoven S#9 BenYC 我反而推介他於1953年的DG錄音(與維也納愛樂者樂合作, 由日本Altus再版) 及1954年於瑞士洛根音樂節的現場錄音(由法國Tahra再版), 後者最有戲劇性及反映福溫格勒處理變速及駕御樂團深厚奶O的最佳例證! George1977  |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 13:36 |
| [#1839] Turandot 各位好: Callas在EMI這套也很像樣，開首至中段夠惡夠辣，熱情澎湃。 男高音Fernandi的唱腔和唱法則跟Gigli等一路相似，非常意大利；聽他唱 Serafin指揮的Verdi Requiem也見一斑 (Testament, stereo) 。  |
wal 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.5 |
2007-09-19 13:59 |
| [#1840] Beethoven S#9 I got a sick leave for the noon time... now I'm at home. Anyone now at home or able to listen music in office, I wanna open a web radio and broadcast some out of print and rare recording. anyway as the upload bandwidth of poor Netvigator, a mono 64K mp3 is limited, but it's fine for mono historical recording. If anyone interest, just let me know. |
hercules 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.172 |
2007-09-19 14:08 |
| [#1841] Beethoven's 9th george1977兄,你好: 這套當然是好! 早年小弟有幸得此版本 : ]  |
wal 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.5 |
2007-09-19 14:11 |
| [#1842] Beethoven's 9th This one claimed as Last Beethoven No.9 by Furtwrangler, also very nice.  |
hercules 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.172 |
2007-09-19 14:16 |
| [#1843] Beethoven's 9th 另 Klemperer 的這一套，是他指過這兩部作品的最佳發揮，比EMI出的Bavarian Radio (Legacy live) 版更好。這可能是因為他(相對地)甚少與Wiener Philharmoniker 合作。小書透露，”未完成”演奏完畢時，他不禁喜嘆 “美妙” (“schoen”)。 --- 註:吾係Klemperer大粉絲…  |
wal 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.5 |
2007-09-19 14:26 |
| [#1844] Pletnev彈貝多芬鋼琴協奏曲 Beethoven: Piano Concertos No.1 & 3 Mikhail Pletnev (piano) Russian National Orchestra Christian Gansch DG 477 6415 (CD) Pletnev與他創立的Russian National Orchestra一口氣為DG錄下貝多芬交響曲及鋼琴協奏曲，但後者不是他親手指揮，由Christian Gansch代勞。此君以前是DG的監製，在這之前，他是Celibidache在慕尼黑愛樂的樂手。由鋼琴家兼任指揮的貝多芬鋼協以往亦有，例如巴倫邦及柏林愛樂（EMI）及阿殊堅納西及克利夫蘭樂團（Decca）。 表演用的三角鋼琴一向由史坦威(Steinway)壟斷，近年愈來愈多鋼琴家轉投他琴懷抱。先是Richter晚年彈Yamaha，Andras Schiff彈Bosendorfer，Angela Hewitt彈Fazioli，在這馗letnev彈的是Bluthner，小冊子還要講明是Pletnev的要求。從這隻CD聽到，這部琴的低音較薄，不像史坦威般深沉，所以左手的音符更容易聽得到。至於中音及高音，亦不如史坦威般光。總體而言，這是一部低中高音音色接近的鋼琴。我跟大家都是聽慣史坦威鋼琴，批評這部Bluthner好像有欠容觀。Angela Hewitt彈的Fazioli，的確可以展現與史坦威不同的韻味，與Fazioli相比，這部Bluthner有異史坦威的「特色」，比較像缺點多一點。 香港有很多Pletnev的粉絲，我可能會得罪一下，請多多包涵。如果你喜歡他的話，會喜歡他的「詩意」，但我覺得他的搶版太濫了。我可以原諒十多二十歲的年輕人這樣彈，但去到五十歲還是這樣，就有點那個了。 具體的例子，是Pletnev一見樂曲有decrescendo漸弱時，會自動減速，或見到有重覆的音符，就想用不同的速度或力度彈。我覺得間中這樣彈是可以接受，但他這種處理太多，亦太意料之中。在第三協奏曲的廣版（軌五），好像彈得太散了。此外，（不是罵他，請放心）可以留意第一協奏曲的快版（軌一）的8:53位置，這堛漕潃茪p節，一向令鋼琴家頭痛。這堿O一串八度下降音階的連奏，若果真的彈八度的滑音（glissando），用現代鋼琴，就算彈得到，也會很痛。要是不用滑音，逐個八度彈，就不像連奏。若果將原本用一隻手彈的八度，由左手及右手各用一隻手指滑下去，就彈不到第二小節一個左手低音。Pletnev的解決方法，是將那個左手低音先彈，再用左右手的一隻手指向下滑。不知道有沒有人試過，但肯定少見，值得留意。 第一協奏曲只得32分鐘，但並不代表他的速度快，是因為在第一樂章用了一個很短的華彩段（貝多芬為第一協奏曲作了幾個華彩段）。第一協奏曲的第一樂章，樂譜上寫的是四拍四節奏，但看樂隊的伴奏，卻有點像二拍二（alla breve）。要是這種旋律放在貝多芬的交響曲，十居其九都是二拍二。四拍與二拍的分別，是數四拍，多數會較慢。所以以往聽不少CD，這個樂章都是較慢，亦給人一種「貝多芬初試啼聲」的感覺，雖然他是先寫第二協奏曲。例外的是Glenn Gould的版本，表面上聽你會以為他怎麼用那麼快的速度，但其實他在用二拍二的節奏，如果你有那張CD，應該拿來聽一聽。  |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.94 |
2007-09-19 15:28 |
| [#1845] Pletnev彈貝多芬鋼琴協奏曲 I quite like the romantic and poetic of Plentnev on Beethoven Piano Sonatas, last time I'm also attended his Live Recital in Hong Kong. His Live At Carnegie Hall is fine concert recording of Pletnev as soloist.  |
hercules 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.172 |
2007-09-19 16:05 |
| [#1846] Pletnev彈貝多芬鋼琴協奏曲 Anyone wanna try my web Boardcasting?? List: Celibidache/London Symphony Orchestra - Tchaikovsky Symphony No.5 - 1948 (Decca Historical) Eduard Van Beinum/Concertgebouw - Bruckner Symphony No.7 (1948 - Dutton Lab) Furtwrangler/Philharmonia Orchestra - Beethoven Symphony No.9 (1954 - Tahra) |
hercules 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.172 |
2007-09-19 17:06 |
