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| [#1061] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? 茶兄 你又講[科技一日千里] 我又講 卡...卡... |
HK2046 正式會員218.xxx.xxx.212 |
2006-11-14 05:18 | |
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| [#1062] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? 嘻嘻, 好高興又有一人開始接受 HTPC. 只可惜科技一日千里呢句野仍然有部份人唔認同, 什麼 HTPC Class D Class T 等連聽都唔聽就講到一文不值, 以為 HTPC 就等如 Sound blaster + 64K MP3, 今時今日既 Class D 就等如 70 年代既 Class D subwoofer.... |
Tea 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.43 |
2006-11-14 05:30 |
| [#1063] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Actually, which one is better: 1. Direct HTPC --firewire--＞ Rosetta 800/DA16x 2. HTPC --＞ 9632 --toslink--＞ Rosetta 800/DA16x Pls comment |
kenfan 正式會員 210.xxx.xxx.221 |
2006-11-14 08:20 |
| [#1064] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Hi Kenfan hing, I think Sonicmusic can provide you the best answer. |
appleteapot 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.8 |
2006-11-14 11:43 |
| [#1065] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? It's a pipedream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
lissawong 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.88 |
2006-11-14 13:59 |
| [#1066] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? tennisman Don't go! You will pipe your eyes. |
lissawong 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.88 |
2006-11-14 14:02 |
| [#1067] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? thanks appleT |
kenfan 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.54 |
2006-11-14 14:13 |
| [#1068] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? ＞＞ 4: 如果想加深了解 PCM270x, 可直接到 diyaudio.com 睇下一班真正 DIY 高手既文章, 哩粒野呇a N 年前已經玩, 講哩粒野既文章冇 100 都有 90 篇, 唔同既 kit 亦出過無數套, 乜野線路配乜野 DAC 撘乜野 clock 加乜野穩壓都一早有人玩過(當然就未必有 Trends 牌既專利雙穩壓加神秘 clock 咁強勁啦), 眾高手對 PCM270x 既評價我就無謂係哩度多講喇, 不如等 appleteapot 兄你自己睇完所有文章找尋答案吧. Tea兄言重了, 大家都是勇於嘗試及接受新事物的人, 坦白講我都是看了這條Thread(由頭到尾睇晒)才想著試做這產品, 我都是想解釋清楚一點我的產品(由於之前description不足)有別於其他PCM270x的產品的地方, 無特別意圖, 希望Tea兄唔會有hard feeling. DIYaudio那邊很少看USB的, 看Class-D部分比較多, 可否給條link讓我(我剛才去只找到些零碎的討論)看看外國班真正DIY高手怎樣做? 從中學習學習, 又想看看他們怎樣評價PCM270x. 哈哈, 我又要澄清啦, (1) 我做的雙穩壓並未有拿什麼專利, 只想問問懂行的朋友有沒有這可能(看外國有些專利也不一定是很複雜的東西, 重idea多D), 但這穩壓的確是我原創設計及試驗出來的(圖中是我開發試驗時的手辦, 並有些手稿線路圖). (2) 我的Clock也沒什麼故作神秘, 只是跟廠家訂造時要求是+-10ppm及加了"Trends"字上去, 仍然是Clock一個. 我絕對同意科技一日千里, 產品推陳出新, 但新產品亦未必一定是新科技, 有時改良舊科技的效果也不錯. 總之是好產品就好了. 同一粒IC不同廠家品牌出的機可以有很不同的聲音質素, DAC是最佳例子, 如果說某一款DAC IC做出來的機一定不好聲, 我想又會在這裡爭論好幾天了. 係呢, 你新玩的EMU 0404玩得如何? 有什麼技術特點? 我想大家都想看你進一步的聽音報告, 可否分享交流一下, 學習學習.  |
Trends 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.252 |
2006-11-14 23:46 |
| [#1069] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Trends Hing, Could you design a product like http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/usbdac.html with a more resonable price?  |
hifiguy 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.151 |
2006-11-15 20:01 |
| [#1070] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? hifiguy 兄, 剛看完其網站的資料, 其實資料極有限, 只是粗略講了些概念, 具體他怎做或用什麼IC沒說清楚, 基本上是個USB輸入+Multibit DAC+膽前級的結合體, hifiguy兄你喜歡一體化的產品嗎? 你想做到是一模一樣還是類似的機器, 我想要做是可以做到的, 價錢一定低他很多, 但他走的路線似乎跟我的不同(亦有些相同的地方), 我想我不會跟著做了. 我較喜歡集中一部分做到最好, 再做另一部分, 不喜歡什麼都連在一起, 又未研發到有什麼過人之處. 一些意見, 不知他的產品是否很受歡迎或音質效果很好? USB控制方面不知他用什麼IC, 不知好不好. 他用的DAC是16bit 48kHz的multibit DAC, 沒有up/oversampling, 沒有digital & analog filtering, 應該不是最新的DAC IC, 舊的DAC IC由於先天所限, 很難做得到如新出的DAC IC的效果, 除非他有什麼秘技. 但我喜歡他用的Passive I/V轉換, 簡單易調校, 相位shift比較少, 做得好比用Opamp有更好的效果. 膽前資料亦不多, 用高壓推6GM8/ECC86單管放大輸出, 就線路來看是最簡單的前級線路, 用Choke和Output Transformer, 看來設計者都偏向宗於傳統, 很有新舊結合的味道, 需然用USB輸入, 但看他用的DAC及膽前線路, 聲音估計偏向音樂感, 膽味重之類, 並不是高分析力, 快速的現代聲. |
Trends 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.29 |
2006-11-15 22:14 |
| [#1071] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? This can make a USB sound card totally detached from a PC. No need to worry about noise from your PC la!! http://www.belkin.com/pressroom/releases/uploads/01_03_06CableFreeUSB.html |
ackcheng 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.32 |
2006-11-18 13:59 |
| [#1072] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? ackcheng hing, it is an innovative product for PC user. I may not be a right person to comment on this product. But, that's only my personal idea to share with brothers. From technical point of view, it may not be a good idea for synchronized data streaming (It is good for PC users, especially notebook PC). Though the wireless bandwidth claimed to be 100x of bluetooth, the jitter may be to major problem to be solved. Unless the developer has special effort on this. The conversion from USB-＞wireless----＞wireless＞USB may introduce much jitter into the data stream. Just like the TOSlink (SPDIF-＞optical ----＞ optical-＞SPDIF conversion. Don't blame me if there are other opinions. |
Trends 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.116 |
2006-11-18 15:32 |
| [#1073] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? cable free USB, good good good! |
蕃薯小姐 正式會員 210.xxx.xxx.65 |
2006-11-18 16:16 |
| [#1074] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Data will be bit accurate, there is no doubt about it. My understanding is that jitter is timing. Just need a bigger buffer and that should be fine |
ackcheng 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.86 |
2006-11-19 00:50 |
| [#1075] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? ackcheng hing, you are right. I believe that their data is bit accurate as it is a basic requirement for a computer network. Their bandwidth is also very high and it is not very difficult to do. For the jitter handling, we have to minimize jitter introduced into the whole signal path. I don't think a bigger buffer can compensate all the jitter introduced in this encoding/decoding process. Otherwise, those high-end HiFi developers need not to put so many efforts and costs in dejittering, like an accurate clock, reclock, master clock, digital buffer, etc... But, anyway we should welcome any new innovative products and it will brings us much more convenience. ackcheng hing, Will you buy one? If yes, I am very interest to try it with my USB audio converter. Hehe, will you welcome me? I personally prefer the solution of accessing data via wireless lan, e.g. a NAS of huge media storage and play by a computer locally (wired) no matter via sound card or USB device to HiFi. Don't know this product will change my current network architecture or not. ill you buy one to test? |
Trends 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.34 |
2006-11-19 02:46 |
| [#1076] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Thanks for your comment. This is the area I do not understand! My understanding is that Hifi developer is dealing with actualy sound signal. Whether it is SPDIF, AES or toslink. The signal contains the actual data and the timing data (jitter). So, a better clock etc. will help to extract the data out accurately. But USB do not transfer audio signal as such, it transfer a data file, a wav, flac, etc file from one place to another to allow subsequent processing. Becasue it is the file that is transferred, the data has to be bit accurate and there is no jitter issue?? Am I confused? |
ackcheng 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.113 |
2006-11-19 09:15 |
| [#1077] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? ackcheng hing, yes it is transferring a data file in the computer network, but since the file itself is a media file (audio or video), it still has the time constraint. In the computer network mechanism, it is cut out a data file into a number of data packets (packet size can be default or fine-tune in network drivers. larger packet size, higher data rate but also higher error rate & retransmission delay) for transmission. It is also included the packets synchronization, error detection & error correction in the network protocol. Each networking device should guarantee the data correction when transmitted through a network protocol. Since computer network are mostly likely designed for data transmission and the data correct is the major concern, and so the timing is always overlooked. That's why there are much more researches in university or industry recently about the data streaming (guaranteed timing) on the standard or proprietary computer networks. Wireless is relatively higher error rate than wired network and so the packet arrival time would be more uncertain with the error detection, correction and retransmission. It is also the jitter. And, the one more wireless data & protocol conversion may also be introduced relatively huge jitter. Another jitter source in computer network is the data traffic. If the network is shared and busy with other data transmission tasks, e.g. BT, the bandwidth that assigned for the media data file transmission is much more unstable. Many brothers should ever experienced what's out in a slow internet access. A proprietary network may help in this issue. Of course, larger buffer may help to store unsychronized packets and retransmit in sychronization. But the buffer processing itself also a jitter source (sometime fast and sometime slow depends on the packet input conditions), espeacially the packet arrival is very unstable. I don't like to add more devices to introduce more jitter into the signal path and then think about how to compensate it. "多隻香爐多隻鬼". As a audiophiler, I personally prefer better sound (lower jitter) to the convenience. That's only my concerns on the jitter introduced by USB/wireless--＞wireless/USB conversion. Maybe the developer also has concern on it and have some techniques to handle it. hehe! 玩HiFi o既野都係 大膽假設, 小心求證, if you buy one, I will be very interest to test with you. :-) |
Trends 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.34 |
2006-11-19 13:28 |
| [#1078] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Trend Hing, Thank you for your analysis. So I get your meaning that audio data transmission over USB is like streaming, like the way "YouTube" works. However, in the Youtube case, the receiving device (PC) should have some buffer to store a period of playback devices. If there is error during transmission and playback device run out of buffer, the playback should pause to wait for next packet or frame. In the case of USB Sound card, I would expect the sound card should have soome buffer to store a certain period of audio data. If the buffer runs out, the sound device should pause. Therefore, even if foobar stops playback, the USB sound card should still continue play for a short period of time, even just 1 ms. "Bit Perfect" to me works on UTP and USB, just not SPDIF. In addition, I thought USB data transmission is sequential. i.e. the path is like: PC ----＞ USB bit perfect ---＞ USB sound card Coaxial out ---＞ non bit perfect SPDIF ----＞ DAC Therefore, USB wireless device should also be bit-perfect as long as the USB wireless device buffer storage is large enough. Am I correct? |
appleteapot 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.190 |
2006-11-19 15:59 |
| [#1079] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Trend Hing, Thanks for your explanation. I am still a bit unsure. Jitter is time based error, it is the error created due to different timing of signal arrivals. http://www.digido.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15 When one is trasnfering a file via USB, the whole file is transferred to the harddisk or RAM. It can then be stored or played back immediately. We agree that the data is bit accurate, so the data in the file, whether it contains audio information or not is still bit accurate isn't it? If the file transferred from A to B via USB is different from USB/wireless - wireless/USB, then this interface is useless, most of the file cannot be opened in computer B. I think the difference between your concern and my consern is what actually get transmitted via USB, in my case, I am transferring a computer file wav, flac etc. But in your case, you are transferring the audio signal after the computer has processed the wave file. Then what you said will become relevant. Very true, in that case, this device cannot just plug into a sound card and hope for the good outcome, one still need to transfer the data to a second computer that is connected to the USB sound card for it to work properly! |
ackcheng 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.162 |
2006-11-19 16:06 |
| [#1080] 最勁 HTPC 有可能靚聲過 CD 機嗎? Trend hing, In the case of Squeeze Box, it has 64MB RAM to store the buffer. If we unplug the UTP cable, the device still continue to play for a minute or so. Does 2704 works in similar way, eventhough the buffer size is smaller? |
appleteapot 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.190 |
2006-11-19 16:07 |
