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| [#141] 請教改位聴歌 唔洗過意唔去，你挑起我裝修慘痛經驗及畫設計圖鋪癮，我畫圖的時間比你想像少。當然我的工作開始勁忙，家下想幫都幫唔到了。不過你在現場，最終決定你話事就真。 加多句，未肯定hifi架同架生係邊，就拉多幾條線整多幾個插頭係可能擺的地方，相對裝修，這是有限錢。到時想加就冇。 最後修改時間: 2014-09-23 14:23:39 |
zbigniew821 正式會員218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-23 14:21 | |
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| [#142] 請教改位聴歌 zbigniew821 hing, No matter what, I really appreciate your advice. |
tscc 正式會員 222.xxx.xxx.123 |
2014-09-24 02:50 |
| [#143] 請教改位聴歌 我住了樓主一樣則的太古單位幾年，從未想到可以這樣改。佩服！ |
moderato 正式會員 119.xxx.xxx.168 |
2014-09-25 21:31 |
| [#144] 請教改位聴歌 A bit of advice. If you are not sure about the accoustic character of bookcase or cabinet, dont make it fixed to the listening area. You can always add shelves later that can be moved. Let the listening side be all bare wall first. Renovation is always an evolutionary proceed. You will hv better idea what to do when you are back in. 最後修改時間: 2014-09-26 01:07:35 |
BenYC 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.92 |
2014-09-26 01:05 |
| [#145] 請教改位聴歌 I guess tscc hing is facing a lot of delimma, which could be narrowed down into 'ideal listening' vs. 'listening with home needs and practicality'. Just wanna share the last round of thoughts: 1. There won't be perfect solution. If I were to do the renovation using hifi as the prime deciding factor, I may go for the last sketch I did. It is the most symmetrical, with the largest of 16ft of width and reasonable depth, with imperfect reflections from the front wall (non-parallel walls speaking facing; but they are quite far away and can be later be tamed by curtains if necessary) 2. I agree the cabinet at the rear wall is unpredictable. Cabinet may induce resonances. I use 4 Ikea billy bookcases at the rear wall and feel okay. The lower half have doors. The upper half has no door. But Billy is particule broad, and the doors are light, and depth is just 30cm. So if 60cm of better quality wood is used as the body of the shelves, the safest way is to use clothed doors for half of the cabinet, and open shelves for the upper half. The clothed doors won't capture the sound as much as wood door. Clothes may wear out in a few years, but they're replaceable Or you could experiment with different type of doors later anyway. The cabinet to me is a necessary and unknown evil. Without measurement, no one know its effect, good or bad, or both. A blank rear wall isn't necessarily the best anyway. But if it has to be there for family storage, I guess for me I will have no choice but using it, adding some ways to minimize the risk of creating resonances. I said no sliding doors since some experienced guy used it with bad results. Anyway, cabinet is a compromise for storage. Tweaks are to reduce the risk of resonances. If still unsatisfied later, other means have to explored. 3. If tssc wants the SAFEST WAY and don't mind spend some money to experiment. Buy ikea storage system. They use particle broad and light in nature. Relatively cheap (though still some money to cover such a large area). Some used the discontinued EXPEDIT to fill the the entire rear wall for accommodating records (but it's less for home storage). They provide starting points for experiments. You could even try IVAR the cheapest. But as said, they are all lighter wood, which do not have good look if you care. If you don't like them, sell them at Asiaxpat websites. Many will come to pick them up. I really enjoyed talking to guys here including the thread owner. It's really a pleasurable exercise to think of how to accommodate different needs in different ways in a relatively large 'diamond shape' living room. btw, moderato hing ... how did you place your gears? |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 04:05 |
| [#146] 請教改位聴歌 多謝兩位師兄的跟進。 Zbigniew821兄的意見，我現時最憂鬱的是右喇叭近大門的位置，最怕剛要放在大門處，因我上次試音如放在離後牆80吋或更少就有boom,如放在離後牆120吋(即離大門)就好好多，但皇帝位又會後退太多到廚房中央。當然因後牆大櫃未拆，又不能作準。另外左右喇叭相隔咁遠，老婆問條喇叭線點收藏？好多細緻嘢我都未想過！真頭痕。 BenYC兄的提議是一個安全的做法。我裝修師父一定唔開心因做少好多生意。 Moderato兄，原來係街坊，可否提供你的擺法參考？ 如果有其他附近師兄有對鑽石型廳的經驗亦請賜教。 最後修改時間: 2014-09-26 09:31:52 |
tscc 正式會員 222.xxx.xxx.123 |
2014-09-26 09:30 |
| [#147] 請教改位聴歌 BenYC兄的提議是一個安全的做法。我裝修師父一定唔開心因做少好多生意。 ________________________________ If from a serious audiophile angle, fixture type cabinet is always a big No. The magazing clipping below cannot be a serious listening setup. Yet, the better question is why serious and to what extend. In any event, if the space is not small, I am not too keen in ordering fixed furniture. Even if all execute nicely, it can be a bit "leung" most of the time or intolerable to a tiny bit of messy-ness when living in it. Home is a collection of memory. A piece of furniture here or there not perfectly match can actually enhance a home feeling. In short, showroom is for selling. Not for living. ;) |
BenYC 正式會員 58.xxx.xxx.198 |
2014-09-26 10:15 |
| [#148] 請教改位聴歌 tssc hing, so are you going to locate the kitchen in the balcony side? Playing 'that big'? :) Do you really mean "放在離後牆120吋" = 10 ft??? Btw, your speakers are now very close to the side walls. Have you tried bring them closer? |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 13:29 |
| [#149] 請教改位聴歌 Hi Ben, |
fotheringay 正式會員 81.xxx.xxx.98 |
2014-09-26 14:03 |
| [#150] 請教改位聴歌 fotheringgay兄： 非常同意！ 音響最緊要有活生感！ 屋企最緊要有生活感！ |
thomasl 正式會員 118.xxx.xxx.194 |
2014-09-26 16:25 |
| [#151] 請教改位聴歌 A quick suggestion to tssc about the speaker wire: 1. I dunno where you are going to place the rack (rear wall, or the side wall). For me I prefer side walls but I know many enjoy watching their lovely gears at the centre :) 2. The problem is more for placing the rack in the side walls since you have to run the wire from left to the right (or the reverse). It's very visible and since it's a family area it could be dangerous. The problem is less if at the rear walls as the speaker wires run from the centre of the rear wall (where you place the gears and power amp) to the left and right speakers. The wires are less visible. Nonetheless, they are still on the floor and may block free movements of you and family members. 3. Only two solutions. One, let all the wires run along the walls and until they're very close to the speakers and then connect the wires to the speaker. You need longer wires. 4. Two: use 坑糟 with two openings. One for inserting wires into the pipe under the ground and another for letting them out and connecting them to the speakers. The thing is you need to 'guess' at least how far your speakers are away from the rear walls. If you think they are very far away (you said it's 120 inches!), make the 坑糟 openings at perhaps one to 1.5 ft behind your supposed speaker positions. Of course if you change speakers the 坑糟 may be useless. For speaker wires with a certain thickness, it's easy to insert the wires into 坑糟 and pull them out in another opening. The 坑糟 thing may not be acceptable to some since they think speaker wires must be lifted above the ground. But speaker wires with good insulation would be good enough. It's difficult to plan this with the overall floorplan since ideally things like this are very detailed and should be planned months ago :) I don't use 坑糟 since I don't mind wires on the floor being visible. But I do understand some won't. Again, it's an imperfect world. It's upon your call. 最後修改時間: 2014-09-26 19:59:13 |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 19:58 |
| [#152] 請教改位聴歌 In AV magazine, using wire pipes.  |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 20:11 |
| [#153] 請教改位聴歌 He said he needs fine adjustment after moving in so the planned speaker positions are different from the actual ones. Hence the a bit strange relative positioning of the speaker and pipe hole. The owner said he play around with speaker positionings before renovation so he kind of knew where to place the speakers. So if you are less sure or only roughly knows their supposed positioning, put the pipe hole a bit closer to the rear wall and expect more wires may be exposed. BUT the hole here seems a bit tight to me. You could consider using larger 坑糟 (in case you use thicker wires) and larger 坑糟口. You could ask the sifu to install 坑糟蓋 as well. Most sifu may ask you to use metallic 坑糟蓋. Please ask for alternatives. I saw very nice 坑糟蓋 covered with woods ($$). Or you may leave it like the pics here though. Yes, you could replace speaker wires. BUT the 坑糟口 of both ends MUST BE CLEAR. If you install 坑糟口 near the power amp and have difficulty accessing it, it will be very difficult for you to insert the speaker wires. The owners of the pic here said he has found his favorite speaker wires so he won't expect changes of any for a long time. SO he installed the 坑糟口 rather invisibly. Again, your decision.  最後修改時間: 2014-09-26 20:24:05 |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 20:12 |
| [#154] 請教改位聴歌 Wireless, but wired environment.  |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 20:13 |
| [#155] 請教改位聴歌 音響最緊要有活生感！ 屋企最緊要有生活感! Of course it's very nice to have both worlds. I just share my limited experiences. When I rennovate my house, storage is a big problem since I have too many books, let alone CDs and records. I have no choice but to get bookcases at the rear wall. I also concerned very much about the potential unwanted resonances. But at the end, again, I have no choice and the rear wall is the only place I could place my books. At the end my compromises are: 1. Yes, I didn't use fixture partly because of what Ben hing said. I am afraid of potential resonances. I learned from some studio guys that clothed doors could minimize such problems (since they need to store things anyway) since they are not rock solid. But at the end, I didn't use custom-made bookcases also because of the cost issue. So I chose Billy from Ikea. I thought, well, if it turned out no good, I could replace it. After all, the cost is minimal. 2. Still I wanted tidyness. I didn't want books or CDs displayed like a mess. For books to be displayed like an art piece, their colours and sizes must match with careful selection. I always doubt, if any bookcases look very nice with books displayed, those books displayed / sorted are selected for that particular purpose. 3. So I ended up using doors for the lower half of the bookcases. I did worry about resonances problem. But since Billy is cheap, and if there was major resonance problems, I could always OPEN the doors in serious and loud audition. 4. But I didn't use doors for the upper body of the bookcases. For one thing, a big bookcase all covered with doors will look too 'intimidating' and 'dense' to me. For another, less doors, less potential resonance problems. But with the entire upper body displaying books could also look too chaotic to me. SO I ended up covering two large areas with two removable picture frames. If the sound is bad, I could always remove the picture anyway. Doing so seem to add variety of look to the bookcases as well. 5. So what's the sound afterwards? Now I always leave the doors shut and the picture frames hanging on the bookshelves since I found no major differences between leaving the door open and taking the picture frames away. Why? I haven't measured the before and after scenario, and perhaps my ears are too bad? Anyway, I guess one reason is that I pulled the speaker at a sufficient distance from the rear wall so the reflected sounds from the rear walls are less decisive to the soundstage. Of course, I also have diffusors on the ceiling and rugs on the floor so they may help reduce the differences. Will the bass be affected by installing the bookcases? Regarding this I really don't have the answer. All I could say is that, I have a blank rear wall before, in a 14 x 15 ft environment, with no diffusors installed. In this almost squarish room, the right side has a corridor facing the right speakers so the sound at the left is always trapped and louder than the right. The lack of diffusors also make the soundstage very unclear at loud volume. A blank rear wall can't guarantee anything. It's a combination of things and fine tuning that may work. It's much easier for me to enjoy music than always thinking about changing gears now. Is it perfect? No. I am not a serious audiophile I guess - I don't even have the golden ratio ... Is it ok for me to enjoy music? I guess yes. tssc hing, at the end, you have to let go the ideal. As suggested by many chings, there are electronic means in the end.  |
zbigniew821 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.19 |
2014-09-26 20:53 |
| [#156] 請教改位聴歌 Even if all execute nicely, it can be a bit "leung" most of the time or intolerable to a tiny bit of messy-ness when living in it. Home is a collection of memory. A piece of furniture here or there not perfectly match can actually enhance a home feeling. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben, absolutely 100% agree with you. I like zbigniew821's home more than the one in AV magazine (too tidy, haha) As what Thomasl said 「屋企最緊要有生活感」，我覺得有啲亂才似樣。今晚我叫咗老婆睇你哋意見，洗下佢個䐉，因佢偏向簡潔，咁真係考起我。不過最終佢亦同意買現成家俱，聽日俾佢捉去睇傢俬取靈感。 最後修改時間: 2014-09-27 03:56:53 |
tscc 正式會員 222.xxx.xxx.123 |
2014-09-27 03:41 |
| [#157] 請教改位聴歌 zbigniew821 hing, Thanks for all the advice & sharing the experience. You are so kind to me. ***Do you really mean "放在離後牆120吋" = 10 ft??? Btw, your speakers are now very close to the side walls. Have you tried bring them closer?*** I didn't bring them closer to test as not enough of time. I was attracted by the power of M802 when putting them about 120" in front of the front wall (離後牆120吋). AS what you said," I'm facing a lot of delimma"! 最後修改時間: 2014-09-27 04:38:24 |
tscc 正式會員 222.xxx.xxx.123 |
2014-09-27 04:37 |
| [#158] 請教改位聴歌 fotheringay hing, thanks for the lovely music. |
tscc 正式會員 222.xxx.xxx.123 |
2014-09-27 04:45 |
| [#159] 請教改位聴歌 如果用坑槽，一定要盡粗！我買了sommer sq blue240,有接近1.5cm直徑，入不了槽！預鬆Ｄ，拉缐時唔傷缐，他日換缐才有可能。 |
moderato 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.101 |
2014-09-27 12:45 |
| [#160] 請教改位聴歌 Actually, better leave all things flexible. I have seen a lot of friends end up leaving their cable piping used. Keeping all things flexible is very important not only for hifi but for comfort too. Different time different needs. And, renovation is always a pain. 最後修改時間: 2014-09-27 12:54:13 |
BenYC 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.91 |
2014-09-27 12:52 |
