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| [#72] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? """The easy approach is to have a CDP with this functionality.""" much easier is rip your cd into wav files and then use certain editing software and invert the files. after that u can play thru your computer or burn it into a cd. |
cpu8088 正式會員115.xxx.xxx.214 |
2011-07-03 20:11 | |
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| [#71] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? My humble opinion is not to over-focus on theories as the ultimate goal is to get the most out of the playback system. I learnt this little trick quite some time ago from a honourable c-fu with deep knowledge in music and audiophile gears. At first i did not take seriously because i was not that experienced. As time pass by i has become more picky, because i believe i should give each recording a chance to exhibit its best show! The baseline is sometimes you find some CDs sounding strange with abnormal imaging, and it will do no harm to try with phase inversion. The easy approach is to have a CDP with this functionality. I told every friend that an audiophile is a challenging role with a long long way ahead - there is always some room for improvement. Keep it up...Cheers! 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 18:02:08 |
faimiu 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.106 |
2011-07-03 17:59 |
| [#70] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? Thanks to Faimiu c-hing's sharing of information on AC signal flows. Thanks to Brother Kei for providing a very good article. My English is not good enough to understand precisely what the writer intends to say. However, he mentions: There you have it, ladies and gentlemen. No one who performed these experiments "ever seems to have evaluated the audibility of reversal of direction of signal travel in wires... All of them made the same mistake—assuming that polarity reversal is the cause of the change in sound they hear." So the trick’s in the metal! "This information would seem to imply that switching polarity could very well be inaudible." How to respond to what I would call errant nonsense? Well, for one thing, I am conversant with wire-direction anomalies. I keep one set of cables hanging around, not because they sound good (they don’t), but to demonstrate the aural effect of reversal, which in this case is fairly dramatic—but nothing like polarity. Doug is correct about wire directionality; where he errs is in attributing the whole of polarity audibility to that phenomenon. So, for setting up a test/experiment properly, it seems that 2 sets of cables should be used in turn (whereby maintaining the cable used is "burn-in" at either polarity setting). Otherwise, the change in directionality of signal/current flow could mask/interfere with the intended test as to whether absolute phase or reverse phase sounds better to a listener. BTW, after reading the abovementioned Article (who can tell if the writer is right or wrong), I begin to give up and forget about trying to tackle/fix 180-degree phase recordings. The conclusion may well be: Forget it, and just enjoy musics!!! 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 16:36:59 |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-03 16:28 |
| [#69] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? We've opened a big can of worms by beginning on this topic... This topic has been gone through in great detail in some English audio forums. There is always argument...... Most of the time I can tell one phase/polarity orientation is clearly more focused than the other one. The correct orientation may give a less bright and less airy impression, but each voice/instrument will snap into focus, and with a palpable "body" in the sound field (with well set-up speakers). In the wrong orientation, everything sounds all spread-out and squashed, kind of in-your-face. Only occasionally, the correct orientation seems very confusing to me. As another c-hing has mentioned in this thread, sometimes not all the tracks in a multi-track recording may be in the same phase/polarity, and after mixing all the voices/instruments will be "locked" within the mix. I think it is when a few elements being recorded out-of-phase with the rest that it may cause confusion to listeners. Some recording engineers have shared information and experience on the topic on various English forums. There is even a book written on this topic. Here is an interesting link: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm ＞ 要聽是否反相其實聾耳陳加各位家中系統都能聽得出. 反相者左右聲道, 人聲痴實個喇叭 I've done a single-blind test with my parents on my cheap system - but without revealing my own preference to them. All of us prefer the same phase/polarity orientations of a few recordings we've gone through. Anyway... most important is Happy Listening! 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 13:39:10 |
Brother Kei 正式會員 118.xxx.xxx.88 |
2011-07-03 13:36 |
| [#68] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? 每個發燒友都有自己一套去對待"錄音反相"，但請勿標籤不予理會的發燒友是唔識野或唔識聽野甚至套機唔夠靚。 大家層次唔同，玩法唔同，態度亦唔同。 以我觀察，好多人對所謂"反相"既概念都未攪清楚，就埋頭埋腦去矯正。 |
孟波 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.240 |
2011-07-03 13:11 |
| [#67] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? Hi Nigramen We are dealing with AC signals Using XLR as example, assume the 2+ pin output a positive sine wave, then the 3- pin outout a negative sine wave at the same time. With a 180 degrees phase shift, the 2+ pin will output -ve sine wave, and 3- pin output +ve sign wave. For both scenarios, the signal flows from the source (CDP) to the preamp and the GND serves as the reference zero and return path. The situation is the same as XLR. Hope it clarify. 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 12:42:53 |
faimiu 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.106 |
2011-07-03 12:40 |
| [#66] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? Hi Nigramen CDP should use digital method/circuitry to shift the output signal's phase. So it will work for both RCA and XLR output. Note that it is not reverting the positive centre pin and the ground pin of the RCA. Amplifiers circuit design may not support inverted RCA pin connections 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 12:19:44 |
faimiu 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.194 |
2011-07-03 12:17 |
| [#65] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? Hi, faimui c-hing: Thanks for sharing. Your points seem quite reasonable. The "phase invert" button on CD player should just swap the 2+/3- for XLR output. RCA interconnects' polarity should not be affected. But I still wonder whether the swap would affect the burn-in status of the XLR interconnects. It seems that signals (or current) flows from higher potential to lower potential: +ve to Ground; and Ground to -ve. My understanding may be incorrect. Could you share more? Thanks. 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 12:10:44 |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-03 12:00 |
| [#64] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? Hi Nigramen My understanding CDP should use digital methods to shift the phase by 180 degrees. For separate CD transport and DAC, the phase invert button usually stay with the DAC unit. Some Full balanced Pre-amps have a phase invert button which is likely to change 2+/3- to 2-/3+ or vice versa with the ground pin untouched. In these cases. the signal direction remains unchanged, meaning it will not "reverse burn in" your cables. |
faimiu 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.106 |
2011-07-03 10:13 |
| [#63] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? As fully burn-in of interconnects can be crucial to sonic performance, a possible way to solve the problem is to buy 2 CD players with "phase invert" buttons. Use one CD player to play CDs with zero phase recording and the other CD player to play CDs with 180-phase recording. This can ensure each pair of interconnects are maintained at their fully burn-in conditions. But it would cost a lot for 2 sets of CD players and interconnects :-) But before investing in 2 sets of CD players and cables, it is advisable to go to the suggested website to check if you can hear the difference of "inverted phase" recording :-) 最後修改時間: 2011-07-03 09:29:06 |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-03 09:21 |
| [#62] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? There should be no confusion with the terminology: "Out-of-phase" should be referred to one channel and the other channel have a phase difference (say by 180 degrees), because of incorrect connection or unequal Left/Right transmission (e.g. different cable materials for L and R channel). The sonic image is of course bad because of the cancellation effect. "Inverted phase" refers to both channels having reversed polarity whereby +ve and -ve poles are connected in the reverse order. Using the Stereophile Test CD can show that invert-phase musics do not have a clearly definited sonic image. My question is whether switching polarity by way of using the "phase invert" button on CD player or preamp would reverse the cable burn-in process? I guess it would. |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-03 08:09 |
| [#61] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? I still feel some chings here confuse the concept of out-of-phase and inverted polairty.... This thread is talking about reverse polarity...not out-of-phase.... out-of-phase : big big difference inverted polairty: comparativly very slightly difference [#35] is out-of-phase test, NOT inverted polarity test If you can't hear difference, I have nothing to say but sorry...... Here is real inverted polarity test: http://audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php If you can hear the difference, I have nothing to say but congratulation~~~~~~ ^^ |
hiphopzz 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.137 |
2011-07-03 01:44 |
| [#60] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? #59.... 我一早講左啦！ 大家唔信嘅咪試下將條訊號線反轉唱下，跟住再正常聽番，咪知乜事囉！ |
7308 正式會員 116.xxx.xxx.49 |
2011-07-03 00:18 |
| [#59] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? But there is one potential problem with "phase invert" button on CD player or preamp despite of the convenience for not having to change polarity of the interconnets or spk cables. Switching from 0 to 180 degree phase from time to time, would the interconnects or spk cabes have a "reverse" burn-in process? Some people say the charges built up on the cables during the burn-in process would be reversed if using the "phase invert" button too often. Any R33 c-hing can share experience. Thanks! |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-02 23:44 |
| [#58] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? 小弟覺得聽 LSC-2430 把 Absolute Phase set 去 180' 係好好多. 如果師先有此 LP可否分享一吓試驗結果呢?  最後修改時間: 2011-07-02 23:36:03 |
sktung 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.187 |
2011-07-02 23:31 |
| [#57] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? 小弟覺得聽 LSC-2430 是 Absolute Phase set 去 180' 係好好多. 如果有師先有此 LP可否分享一吓試驗結果呢? Paganini Rhapsody (Rachmaninoff) - Arthur Rubinstein - (2/2)  |
sktung 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.187 |
2011-07-02 23:30 |
| [#56] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!CbP6gZ.QGRv5BnHQ_5t0HzU-/article?mid=10 ＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞＞ If so many LP/CD production firms use "out-of-phase" recordings, it seems necessary to buy a CP player or preamp with a "phase invert" buttion. Is it the right thinking?? 最後修改時間: 2011-07-02 22:27:17 |
nagramen 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.209 |
2011-07-02 22:26 |
| [#55] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? 簡單做個實驗，用錄音機錄低個仔把聲(又熟悉又親切)，再用套hifi播出來，正反相都試試，看看分別在那裡？ 最後修改時間: 2011-07-02 22:26:23 |
孟波 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.240 |
2011-07-02 22:24 |
| [#54] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? sktung hing, A very good question that many body want to know also. No matter how..., you can take below information as reference. http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!CbP6gZ.QGRv5BnHQ_5t0HzU-/article?mid=10 Somebody challenged such information as they don't trust a music production firm will produced all recordings out-of-phase at all. ============================ tc1974 兄, 多謝你提供的參考資料. |
sktung 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.187 |
2011-07-02 22:20 |
| [#53] 為何反相錄音.............especially old LP? 又抄過 ... ... [#12] 好多cd 都是反相錄音, 聽返正相好多功夫, 有簡單解決 ? 正相反相錄音, 二十年前是常識, 到了今天竟然成為你是否相信有沒有的問題, 實在奇怪得很 ... ... 以小弟有限所知, 早年錄音室設備並未全世界統一規範化, 錄音師傅慣手勢, 訊號線左邊紅右邊黑, 或者左邊黑右邊紅, 即使同一唱片公司, 都有可能同時發行呢隻正相果隻反相. 我們最常見是娛樂粵曲, 舊版cd/黑膠有正反相之分. 這是analogue年代的事情. 及後cd普及, 同一時間錄音亦發展到數碼化, 設備一起有某個規範, 新錄音基本上都是正相, 反相者都是二十年或以前analogue錄音的舊物. 要聽是否反相其實聾耳陳加各位家中系統都能聽得出. 反相者左右聲道, 人聲痴實個喇叭, 好似帝女花紅膠mono, 左邊白雪仙右邊任劍輝, 兩隻喇叭分別對唱. 當喇叭後邊啦叭線紅黑對調, 咀型連帶咚咚查查即時歸位, 這就100%肯定是反相. 某些早期cd, 亦有類似情況, 因此十多年前一些高級型號cd機及d/a解碼, 有正反相switch. 到現在, 能買到的cd基本上是正相, 甚至原來反相者亦改回正相再版, 如套裝任白三寶. 漸漸地, 正反相失傳, 甚至變成少部份樂迷的迷信固執, 奇怪得很. 最簡單轉反相, 就是關掉後級, 然後紅黑喇叭線對調. 多個香爐多隻鬼, 加多個環節就增加一個失真的機會. 況且, 遍尋全屋, 閣下又有多少隻碟係反相? |
七仔 正式會員 1.xxx.xxx.87 |
2011-07-02 22:12 |
