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[#2221] Linn LP12 Fans    
不過裝回轉盤就同原來個樣無分別!


tkchan
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119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-29 23:52
[#2222] Linn LP12 Fans    
整個更換過程要個幾兩個鐘, 又拆又裝小心翼翼, 如果裝第二個會快手啲。啲鋼柱有分長短, 初初唔覺意搞錯了又要整過所以花多左時間。另外要係個木壳嘅一個三角加固板鑽多一個洞用以上緊一支鋼柱螺絲。

呢塊 Tangerine Karman CNC 鋁面板比原來嘅鋼面板輕, 但裝好後整個盤比原來的更加堅實穩固。主要是新面板增加以四次加固點, 即共有6個固定點鎖緊個木壳。原來的鋼板只得中間條 Cross bar 兩條螺絲鎖緊, 然後近摩打位有條長螺絲顶住塊面板減少因摩打轉動時引起的諧震, 不過近臂板那邊是懸空的, 所以有一些鋼板久而久之有少少下墮微變就可能因為承受了整個轉盤加副底板和唱臂的重量所致。 這塊 CNC 面板基本上改善了這個弱點, 令面板和木壳增強了一體性, 更加稳固。
tkchan
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119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-30 00:22
[#2223] Linn LP12 Fans    

[#2211] Linn LP12 Fans
https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-10365-1-1.html

好多相睇,教你set盤]


睇完台灣個位專業劉老闆安裝部 Klimax, 抹一把汗夾媽媽聲,佢識唔識裝架??? 裝完塊副底板, 彈弓, 摩打之後, 竟然無裝條 T bar 就咁上埋塊底板就算, 咁即係塊 Top plate 無鎖緊係個木売度, 如此一來塊 Top Plate 只靠兩粒螺絲仔收係个木壳度, 唔慌啲聲會好。 另外, 較唱盤個三支彈弓時, 支唱臂又未較好水平, 唱臂個尾鉈又唔裝上支臂度, 重量都未準確, 就咁就擰三支彈弓, 又無水平尺去度個轉盤是否水平, 靠目測, 死得啦, 較完都唔準啦, 唔怪之得佢話要靠運氣。 Linn 盤(其實所有盤都係)係好注重較水平, 首先個安装架要較水平, 夾個木売上去之後四邊都要度水平, 然後裝好個轉盤同支臂, 臂板等都要較水平, 較好水平之後三支彈弓上下彈跳動先會平均, 個轉盤同支臂要上下彈跳唔好左右愰, 另外仲要唱住隻唱片, 用手去按下個轉盤等佢上下跳動都唔會跳線先算合格。 睇見呢位劉老闆較完個廿皮個盤心都實晒, 肯定要搵人執手尾。
tkchan
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119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-30 00:39
[#2224] Linn LP12 Fans    
TK,
多謝你分享了安裝 Karmen 6mm 厚 Top Plate 的圖片及安裝過程.

更關心的是聲音提升有多少? 看其她地方Linn LP12 用家差不多一面倒贊好.

偶爾有數人說它不好, 原來有人只升級唱盤補品, 但一直沿用不太怎樣的音響器材.

真係以為 Source 就係靈丹妙藥.
blue-ray
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42.xxx.xxx.63
2018-01-30 08:35
[#2225] Linn LP12 Fans    
咁我就有d吾同意,source 一定係最重要,一隻錄音質數高既碟係普通器材下也會有不錯的表現,但一隻普通的碟係幾十萬器材下也不會飛。
nikonfan
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112.xxx.xxx.187
2018-01-30 16:38
[#2226] Linn LP12 Fans    
Source絕對重要,個source唔好,後面幾靚都冇用。
rcywong
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112.xxx.xxx.250
2018-01-30 19:32
[#2227] Linn LP12 Fans    
別少看source. 沒有好source的話用幾貴的器材都只是很平庸

kl122002
個人訊息 會員
42.xxx.xxx.189
2018-01-30 20:03
[#2228] Linn LP12 Fans    
我指係有最好 Source, 但之後不怎樣, 如 MP3 音擴.

最好 source 都無用.
blue-ray
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42.xxx.xxx.184
2018-01-30 20:25
[#2229] Linn LP12 Fans    
" @ #2224 更關心的是聲音提升有多少? 看其她地方Linn LP12 用家差不多一面倒贊好."

這件 Karman CNC 面板對聲音的提升度, 可以用有耳共聞去形容。 有沒有改變 Linn 的原來音色, 這便見仁見智了。換了 Karman 面板後, 它令整個音樂感豐富起來。 首先是音樂的活力增加了, 細節不用去尋找而是很自然清晰的演現出來, 相對以前有點拖泥的感覺現在換成輕鬆活躍明快, 像拋下了一個沉重包袱一樣。 音場很明顯的比以前向兩面伸展, 聲音更加脫離喇叭單元, 前後感分明。 高低音也有增益的伸展, 其中高音的改善令人驚喜, 小提琴, 鋼琴, 古箏, 二胡等的絃聲來得悠然細緻, 弱音尾音回音都隨著琴音娓娓活現, 空氣感徐然而生, 比起之前有很著耳可聞的改善。

環觀 LP12 的設計, 這塊面板的結構其實存在不少缺點, 不明為何 Linn 廠在改良了風箏底板連臂板一體化之後, 卻仍保留著這塊如山寨貨的鋼面板而不改良。如果不是安裝了這塊 Karman CNC 面板, 也不察覺到原來這塊鋼板的不堪。 基本上這塊鋼板只靠中間兩支長螺絲收緊在木壳上, 左邊靠木売邊承托, 但右邊是懸空的, 隨著便是整個轉盤的重量都掛在鋼面板的三支彈弓螺絲上。 怪不得有一些面板日久便下墮微彎。一些 Linn Expert 曾經努力為 Linn 解釋這個微彎現象是Linn 廠故意造成的, 目的是令面板貼緊木売減消諧震。Well, 這就信不信由你, 因為有一些鋼面板卻是沒有彎的。以 LP12 的結構, 這塊面板和木壳連成一體化的穩固程度, 直接影響到懸掛在下的風箏底板, 臂板, 在上的唱臂, 唱頭和轉盤的穩定性以致聲音的清晰還原度。

這塊 Karman CNC 鋁面板針對原來鋼板的缺點改善。鋁面板本身加厚及鏍有坑槽, 令面板平直堅硬不會像鋼板有諧震和彎曲。除了中間的兩支主螺絲收緊木壳, 另外在四角增加了四支螺絲位收緊木壳, 令面板和木壳能夠堅實穩固地一體化, 讓鑲嵌在內的風箏底板臂板, 轉盤等等有一個穩固的懸掛平台, 明顯的改善了音樂的細節重現。

其實 Tangerine 還有一款絕世 LP12 補品, 就是將面板連木壳用鋁 CNC 整件鏍出來。 這件神器面世不久, Review 報告還沒有許多, 基本上是讚好, 但我覺得這似乎是走過了頭, 有可能把原有 Linn 的音色大大的改變了, 沒有親身耳聽過, 不敢妄動, 雖然售價也不是殺人般的, 不過絕對不是平宜貨。

順便一提是我的其他器材: Amp 是 Mark 326S+532, 喇叭是 B+W 800D2, 唱头 Ortofon Rohmann + T1000 牛 + EAR835 Headamp。 另外我的 LP12 木壳是英國 Woodsong 廠用非洲玖瑰木(Bubinga)造的, 木質比原廠任何一款木壳都堅硬。
tkchan
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119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-30 23:29
[#2230] Linn LP12 Fans    
@ #2229

精采. 十分仔細. 我也有同感, 但寫不出你這樣好, 謝謝!

blue-ray
個人訊息 正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.143
2018-01-31 08:59
[#2231] Linn LP12 Fans    
#2229
怪不得有一些面板日久便下墮微彎
______________________________

My friends, may I suggest the first thing to find out roughly how much tensional force is required to bend or elongate the steel top plate on a LP12 before jumping to this. No offence, just hardly agree with this.
dkyyu
個人訊息 正式會員
1.xxx.xxx.205
2018-01-31 10:11
[#2232] Linn LP12 Fans    
''怪不得有一些面板日久便下墮微彎''

Sub-chassis, inner platter , outer platter , tonearm , bearing house 成十磅以上, 經過 30-40 年又當別論, 鐵柱都磨成針啦, 小學書本教的.

我另一看法, 這些不鏽鋼片都是一大卷運送到工廠的,較卷心的難免彎曲多一些.

所以有人在80 年代買全新的乜有微彎,當然 Linn 的天才 sales 有一堆解釋這是正常, 又什麽 減少energy一大堆理由, 但為何只有部份呢?

That is normal, many people hardly agree with many things, no offence, including me.


最後修改時間: 2018-01-31 10:55:38
blue-ray
個人訊息 正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.143
2018-01-31 10:54
[#2233] Linn LP12 Fans    
如果虎板的優點是如此的好,
甘點解Linn 唔將此自已生產, 放入頂級model ?
kl122002
個人訊息 會員
118.xxx.xxx.209
2018-01-31 13:36
[#2234] Linn LP12 Fans    
"@ #2231
My friends, may I suggest the first thing to find out roughly how much tensional force is required to bend or elongate the steel top plate on a LP12 before jumping to this. No offence, just hardly agree with this."

這只是我基於金屬疲勞的原理一個猜測而已, 沒有科學考據 。 基本上 LP12 盤的 structural design 自出廠以來沒有多大改動。 問題是: 為什麼一部份顶板有彎曲而一部份沒有??? 而新出產的 LP12 的頂板是絕無僅有會有彎曲的。所以很難說服這是原盤設計的一部份。這些彎曲的頂板多數被發現在二手或使用多年的盤身上, 鮮有新盤主一開機便發覺這個問題。

雖然 LP12 是浮盤, 但它的設計是懸吊式, 有別於 Thorens 125/126 的懸浮式。LP12十多磅的重量是吊掛在頂板的三支缧絲柱上, 而這三支缧絲柱是直接用絲帽收緊在頂板上。 簡單的觀察便明白這三支缧絲柱與顶板的接觸位是不斷受到下拉壓力, 從沒間斷, 而這些下拉力就沿著螺絲孔向鋼板四週分散, 造成 tension dispersion 效應。 但是, 因為這塊鋼板只在中間邊沿兩點夾緊木壳, 所以有部份的能量透過這兩點位置傳遞到木壳被吸收, 但亦有餘下的能量傳到顶板邊沿無法與木壳有一個緊密連接觸點傳遞而被反射回來, 因此會否造成一種諧震便有待考究, 對音質有是好是壞影響便見仁見智了。
tkchan
個人訊息 正式會員
119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-31 15:10
[#2235] Linn LP12 Fans    
Dear TK,

Long time no see.

I had the priviledge to encounter quite a numbers of LP12s, some used and most new in the old 80s days. Unluckily, I have never seen any flat plate before and only happened to find most (not sure all because of my fading memory) LP12s in the dealer showroom carrying the same feature of curving top plates (all facing to the tonearm plate) as described. I remained skeptical but was too young to ask at that time. Later when home in HK, I bought 3 LP12s myself, 2 used and the latest one brand new in 2005. Coincidently to no exception, all my 3 LP12s share the same curving design. I would say to myself this is a common find on all type of LP12 before 2005 or else. Or perhaps, there was one type of top plate rolled out at the beginning and soon at the later day, Linn designed the curved type to resolve the A/C motor noise issue. Anyway, all are my perhaps and perhaps. This always remains as a myth to Linnies until Linn told us their truth one day.

Back to the design and my observation. It would take quite a tremendous tensional force to deform a stainless steel top plate by weight if properly mounted on any LP12. Secondly, there is no sign of any collapes appeared at all 4 sides of the top plate. All sides lined up neatly and parallel to the sides of wooden plinth, I would suggest there is no evidence leading to the conclusion of undesirable deformation.

My wild speculation on the possible purpose of this factory tweak is that the conspicious curving plate can help to strengthen the top plate (quite similar to what the car factory have done to strengthen their vehicle bonnet with ridges) in order to mitigate the vibration generated by the AC motor mounting on the top plate, thus reducing the direct impact affecting the bearing shaft and more importantly to avoid exciting the 3 crucial suspension springs.

The AC motor is gone now. I don't know what the latest top plate may look like, perhaps the move of the AC motor to DC motor type which generates much less vibration may change Linn's engineer mind in their latest design. Again, all are own speculations, I trust that no one should take my speculation for serious.

Nice day. :)



最後修改時間: 2018-01-31 16:59:23
dkyyu
個人訊息 正式會員
58.xxx.xxx.110
2018-01-31 16:42
[#2236] Linn LP12 Fans    
Stainless steel in roll,

blue-ray
個人訊息 正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.143
2018-01-31 16:59
[#2237] Linn LP12 Fans    
劉老闆剛安裝的 Linn LP12, 直過尺

blue-ray
個人訊息 正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.143
2018-01-31 17:05
[#2238] Linn LP12 Fans    
#2237
好似有少少似將官網的Klimax LP12 張橫面圖的放大???

https://www.linn.co.uk/hifi-separates/turntables/complete#klimax-lp12

原link 中特別是在下面的比較表裡最左的一張:



最後修改時間: 2018-01-31 20:07:36
kl122002
個人訊息 會員
42.xxx.xxx.189
2018-01-31 20:06
[#2239] Linn LP12 Fans    
頭三張都係 Linn 官方網的. 這張劉老闆啦, 原裝是 AC 摩打/

blue-ray
個人訊息 正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.143
2018-01-31 20:52
[#2240] Linn LP12 Fans    
Dear Dennis,

Thank you for the enlightenment on this mysterious curved feature of the LP12 top plate. Linn however has never openly registered an explanation on this phenomenon otherwise it would have dismissed the many speculations on this subject. New LP12s, specially those now given a code name of Klimax, Akurate and Majik are rarely seen installed with banded or curved top plates, not from their websites or other forums showing these newly installed units. May be Linn has found a solution in suppressing the motor noise of these modern LP12s without banding the top plate.

Before I replaced the top plate of my old LP12 with a 3rd party substitute, I never seriously noticed the inherent weaknesses that it brings to affect the mechanical coherence of the TT. One important point I didn't mention in my previous post is that the curved top plate will cause the two mounting screws for the suspension springs to stick out at a slightly skewed angle not perpendicular to the top plate. This will in turn affect the smooth springing movement of the sub-chassis supporting the platter and the tonearm assembly. After the installation of the Karman CNC top plate, the adjustment to the level balancing as well as the springing movement is so much smoother as a result of this replacement.

Linn indeed has said that the LP12 is an open system and they welcome 3rd parties to develop alternate components for improvement. I applaud this open-minded philosophy. The roll out of the kore/keel and the DC drive system is perhaps a result of the concerted wisdom drawn from the many 3rd party developments.
tkchan
個人訊息 正式會員
119.xxx.xxx.60
2018-01-31 21:01
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