review33.com:影音天地:Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle

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[#1] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle Thinking about building either Single full range driver with no crossover in a bass reflex box or 2 way open baffle speakers with active crossover and bi -amp driven, which type would be more rewarding? Either type has merit/demerit and I’m torn between them.		sugano 會員 210.xxx.xxx.10	2018-09-19 15:21

[#2] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
If your drive freq range is capable of covering 50-13000, put it in a box is better from my experience. The crystal clear direct sound comes with the expense of major thinness/cancellation in midlow. (I never like open baffle except one time which was a 4feet wide one.)

最後修改時間: 2018-09-19 17:56:47

BenYC

正式會員
45.xxx.xxx.82

2018-09-19 17:55

[#3] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
Depends on your definition of "rewarding" ;)

I presume you will be going down the DIY route and thus 2-way open baffle would be easier to start off with if you already have the active cross-over and amps

sgb

會員
125.xxx.xxx.34

2018-09-19 18:35

[#4] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
My $0.002

Open baflle can sound addictively good but this is very personal, like all hifi stuff. I would not recommend using one fullramge driver on a big baffle to cover 20hz-20khz or even a large portion of this. You can extend the back-and-front cancellation frequency only by so much unless you want to put a wall of wood in front of you that not only does not look nice but also does not sound good. The beauty of open baffle (or anything dipole) is to also enjoy the spatial effect and a very delusive 3-D-ness created from the back firing wave, those are part of the deal. It is not about making accurate sound but more about BEAUTIFUL sound (if you love that).

I would recommend you exploring a FAST system. FAST= Fullrange augmented with Subwoofer (or dipole woofer) and Tweeters (you may not need it depending on your driver). The core idea is to put them in a baffle wide enough to provide a baffle cut off frequency low enough so as not to bother the ears so much as well as for woofers (sub or not sub) to come in, and a baffle that is small enough to live with. Every design is a compromise. It matters if you know what they do and don’t.

To go a cheap way, take a look at 老曹L. Cao’s OB kit offerings. He has an active two-way tube crossover with built in power amp for driving your Bass, he also makes a 15” high Qts dipole woofers that is modelled after the famous AE Dipole woofers. Now he even sells an IKEA flat-pack OB kit which should be easy to assemble. It has an adaptor board for mounting different fullrange drivers, or fullramge+tweeter if you can fit them all in.

For me, I have gone the Lampizator way and I even sold all my legendary Klipschorn & Cornwall after living with them all for a year or so. I am one who finds it extremely difficult to listen to almost anything else, except perhaps electrostatics panel.

最後修改時間: 2018-09-19 19:14:52

welborne

正式會員
182.xxx.xxx.205

2018-09-19 19:08

[#5] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
Welborne C'Hing,
Does OB heavily rely on precise room acoustics to unleash its full potential?
I love the tremendous 3D and deep sound stage that dipole systems can offer, like the old Dayton Wright electrostatics.

hotiron

會員
49.xxx.xxx.138

2018-09-19 19:27

[#6] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
On the point of “precision”, Limage 定位 has be the expert I must say. I don’t want to 班門弄斧。

For a rough guide, however, you want the space behind the baffles to be as long as you can afford, the longer the better, the opposing factor is how close the baffle can be placed in front of you before you lose the drivers timing coherence . And to maximize the visual orgasmic effect of having your speakers completely disappeared from your sight and only feel (see) the sound of instruments come from a space between the front wall and your baffle, you might want to pull apart your left and right baffles as much as possible so that they fall out of your forward vision . Sometimes you might even manage to hear sound appear to emerge from space beyond the front wall. That’s what I am enjoying if the recording allows.

If you are playing with an all passive one piece panel such as ESL or Magnepan, your low frequency performance will take advantage of Limage’s 室交連tricks but this mean the ideal position that simultaneously gives best bass and image is fixed by the geometry of your room。But you will gain back a not so insignificant amount of flexibility if your bass is separately & actively driven and can be adjusted.

最後修改時間: 2018-09-19 20:00:14

welborne

正式會員
42.xxx.xxx.208

2018-09-19 19:48

[#7] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#2 Dear Ben,

If I'm going for bass reflex, I'm considering Alpair 12P.... Any experience with the driver? I have a pair of 300B mono blocks but would these be good enough to drive Alpair 12P?

sugano

會員
64.xxx.xxx.5

2018-09-19 21:14

[#8] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
Why not 2-ways without Xover?
some diyer tried H-frame and know the natural roll-off of high-mid driver is matching with woofer

https://www.google.com.hk/amp/s/speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2015/11/18/open-baffle-on-top-of-h-frame/amp/

Thanks for the information from pluto2

arthurc

正式會員
14.xxx.xxx.253

2018-09-19 21:21

[#9] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#4 Dear Welborne,

The size of the baffle is a major issue for the most of us but there seems like a narrower open baffle(still pretty wide) that would work. It may be a good idea to copy the H frame sub woofer from here:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Jordan.pdf

Still can't decide on BR or OB but Alpair 12P looks like an ideal candidate
for either application(mid and high for OB).

老曹's open baffle setup looks interesting but too bad I couldn't find any user review on the 15" unit. Have you had chance to audition them in person?

sugano

會員
64.xxx.xxx.5

2018-09-19 21:36

[#10] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#8 Dear Authur,

Thanks for the heads up. I need to study this ASAP!

sugano

會員
64.xxx.xxx.5

2018-09-19 21:40

[#11] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#8
Alright, the guy is using the subwoofer amp with xover.... I have a gainclone that can be used to drive the sub and I also have 300b monoblocks that can be used to drive mid-high unit.... However in order to use the juice from the monoblocks more efficiently I could filter out lower end w/ xover for the mid-high driver; am I making sense here?

sugano

會員
210.xxx.xxx.10

2018-09-19 22:21

[#12] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
The juice of H Frame i think is no Xover in mid-high driver and let it roll-off naturally on the H-frame setting.

I am a beginner on Hifi-playing. There should be lots of experts to share their views on this interesting topic.

Have Fun!

arthurc

正式會員
14.xxx.xxx.253

2018-09-19 23:19

[#13] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
You can skip the high pass for the fullrange drivers and let the baffle width roll it off acoustically, but not electrically. Since your drivers are still reacting to all those incoming low frequency electrically that you can’t hear much, high passing it will improve intermodulation distortion heard through a cleaner and clearer mid to high, as well as better power handling (since your fullrange driver no longer need to handle deep and sometimes destructive low frequencies)

It all depends on how loud you play relative to how much power your fullrange drivers (very few are far from being fullrange) can handle, and whether your active crossover sound transparent. Always in hifi we face a decision to how 幾害取其輕..

If you have doubt about L Cao’s tube active crossover, there is a more expensive offering from PureAudioProject designed by Nelson Pass. I personally think at least L. Cao’s baffle kit and the 15” OB woofers are worth every cent of it. I have heard the woofers in person with my ears In a gentleman’s home in 錦繡花園 two months ago and they have very good weight and low end extension even in a moderately wide baffle (approx 600mm). I myself might even buy them for my second OB project if I ever pick myself up to start.

最後修改時間: 2018-09-20 01:17:06

welborne

正式會員
61.xxx.xxx.223

2018-09-20 01:09

[#14] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
1

welborne

正式會員
61.xxx.xxx.223

2018-09-20 04:02

[#15] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
2

welborne

正式會員
61.xxx.xxx.223

2018-09-20 04:02

[#16] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
3!

welborne

正式會員
61.xxx.xxx.223

2018-09-20 04:03

[#17] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#7 Dear Sugano,

Sorry I have no experience with Alpair 12P but I did browse at its response curve. It seems to be quite lacking under 100hz in order to get more on the treble side. Does not sound like my cup of tea. Yet, I can be wrong and all has different preference.

I mainly use new prc made 3" 4" fullrange from Taobao ("Koon Yum" and "WXP") and 8" and 12" vintage ones (Philips, Jensen, EV). My suggestion is to start by ordering cheap ported cabinets from taobao and start from there.

Hifi is quite personal plus interesting to explore. I like box but you may like open baffle, at the end of the day you have to try all to know what you really like. It is more a self discovery journey than to know what speaker setup is better as all has their own merits which may or may not values.

Yet, if you really wanna go active crossover, get a digital one that can control everything. It is much more flexible as our human ears is not really that easy to tell analog vs digital and the ability to control time alignment and crossing curves that digital offers is crucial. Plus, little things such as a mute button can already make life much much easier.

Happy playing.

最後修改時間: 2018-09-20 11:43:47

BenYC

正式會員
58.xxx.xxx.165

2018-09-20 11:32

[#18] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
#13

I'm a chicken shit audiophile so it's really nice to know somebody did try out the Lao Cao's 15" driver in 60cm width baffle with good result! Originally I was going to copy the H frame sub but I have more options now:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Jordan.pdf

I am still fantasizing my speaker project but do you think alpair 12p is a good candidate as a mid/high unit for OB build? Any experience with this unit? With a xover a sub can take care of the low end up to 200-300hz so mid-high unit can be driven by a lower power tube amp correct?

sugano

會員
210.xxx.xxx.10

2018-09-20 14:24

[#19] Single Full range driver in a bass reflex box or open baffle
I have heard Alpair 12p myself at Mark Fenlon’s office when he still had one in Chaiwan, but it was in a fairly large Pensil box. It sounds damn good to my ears, especially the bass. I could easily live with that and don’t even bother to go the OB way, though I love OB more. In my not so little experience with OB, if a driver sounds good in box, it will just sound so much more beautiful on OB (watch, I say sound beautiful but not more accurate), if you provide solution to support the baffle width cancellation with an add-on woofer.

I have seen some people use Alpair 12p on small baffle matched with a 15” woofer. The original dealer of Bastanis OB uk did just that. You can google and find quite some OB projects utilizing Mark’s drivers.

The project below uses one Alpair12p with an AE Dipole 15” woofer. The user liked it very much. But these days I wouldn’t trust other’s ears but our own. Everyone listens differently. To get a sound that please you but not others, sometimes you must be brave to really jump with a leap of faith, otherwise you are stuck with all those cliché reviews that point you to old fashion off-the-shelf items. Be brave man!