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| [#21] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 To blacksum You may care to try a quick and temporary fix by adding EQ to compensate the room deficiency until your plan to change the flooring again. --- I know this may not be possible in the immediate future, my understanding timber flooring are normally better for sound systems performance in general. May I ask is there any sound image difference before and after the floor change? What I try to find out is whether the tile floor has also affected the focus of the sound image apart from losing some low frequencies from the speakers. [ This is Without any change of equipment or cable change or adding any EQ, I know this may be a difficult question for you to answer as everyone's memory to sound is rather limted]. You may try different speaker separation distance and different toe in or toe out angle to see if this may help. Reason for my suggestion is to try to see if the tile floor may have affected the resonance frequencies in your listening room. Remember, somehow there are ways to remedy the problem for those who are willing to try. To begin with, you must try a method without further cost to you first. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-02 16:35:35 |
NAR 正式會員219.xxx.xxx.99 |
2011-01-02 16:27 | |
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| [#22] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 我由細屋盤大屋,樓低高左,廳深左, 但由柚木地轉磚地, 高音很響, 左右大細聲(左面近玻璃,但有1米)....... 低音散晒....... 我愛木地板!!! 最後修改時間: 2011-01-02 21:06:54 |
aftjv 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.100 |
2011-01-02 20:59 |
| [#23] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 All audiophiles know that 木地板 is the best for sound. Unless there is a very very strong reason (such as pets at home or order from boss), never change it to 磚地! 最後修改時間: 2011-01-02 21:17:57 |
CKKeung 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.4 |
2011-01-02 21:14 |
| [#24] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 我有D朋友鍾意木地版的裝飾但又怕打理煩,結果用咗木紋的磚,結果D聲都係.... |
idt2000 正式會員 116.xxx.xxx.64 |
2011-01-02 21:30 |
| [#25] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 Blacksun兄 用現有器材，不用改機，仍可能有「機會」改善中高響、低音薄問題，但要知揚聲器型號，面板設計及擺位等(如不想公開，可PM本人)... 不過先聲明，是實驗性的。好處是：不改裝修，不換器材及所費不多，一試無妨。 最後修改時間: 2011-01-02 23:50:44 |
黃思璁 正式會員 119.xxx.xxx.230 |
2011-01-02 23:47 |
| [#26] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 there are many here who consider burn in will improve sound. just burn burn and burn. or as nar suggested using eq as a band aid job. eq will introduce more distortions and phase shifts. otherwise all hi end electronics will include eq for 2 channel if bass not enough why not add 2 subwoofers? |
cpu8088 正式會員 115.xxx.xxx.214 |
2011-01-03 09:12 |
| [#27] 鄺大俠都用西班牙地磚 左右油画+細RPG，波斯地壇，兼尼樣必殺技拉：到頂CD。LP櫃圍后U牆，cellopallet 分明佢系特登用地磗 下次見到用木地板Studio吾好贊 用地磚又好靚声的Recording Studio，要salute |
TISvili11 正式會員 183.xxx.xxx.80 |
2011-01-03 09:45 |
| [#28] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 低音少左就教人加超低 你都好初哥下 你估依玩AV咩 低音潛唔低同少左低兩個概念 難道subwoofer同會引起distortions and phase shifts ?? 木地板聲就係木地板聲 磚地板聲就係磚地板聲 你可以搞room acoustic減少磚地板聲 但改唔到磚地板聲變木地板聲 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 09:51:31 |
MDLP 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.66 |
2011-01-03 09:49 |
| [#29] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 cpu8088 你認又好 唔認又好 你無心幫人唔緊要 唔好亂copy 野老點人 |
gingergarlac 正式會員 183.xxx.xxx.158 |
2011-01-03 10:08 |
| [#30] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 CPU8088 I merely try to help 'blacksun' to solve a problem and not creating a new issue. Blacksun does not even know what type of EQ should be used, if he likes to give it a try I am sure he will ask more questions. However, you have already post here by saying EQ create distortion and phase shift and even suggest sub-woofer and without knowing other associated parameters in 'blacksun's room'. Do you know what type of music he listens to before suggesting sub-woofers??? Do you own a sub-woofer system yourself???? It depends which type of EQ(digital or analogue), which make, which brand, which model EQ, they all have different performance and hence some may be fine other may induce some distortion or phase shift, but the benefit of using EQ to control certain room acoustic may be far greater than not using EQ and the phase shift and distortion you mention may become insignificant issue in comparison. This is the reason why I made such suggestion as one of options for the temporary fix (bandade solution if you may say but they do work), but of course a proper listen room acoustics can do without any of those add ons. Besides, how much experience do you have with EQ? Just because you do not use it does not mean other people should not be using EQ as an option. Can you tell me which recording/mastering studio does not use EQ in their music production???? My understanding is, majority of commercial releases are treated by EQs and compressions in most studio, if the end user do not use EQ does not mean they are listening to music without phase shift and distortions, those artifacts are already embedded in the source but depend on how effective the engineers apply those EQs, the artifacts are minimised. A layman need to learn how to use those professional equipment properly to get optimal result and put any problems under control. So please do youself a favour, try not to become a 'Frog at the bottom of a well'. Any wrong advice you give to people can do more damage than good. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 12:49:14 |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.94 |
2011-01-03 12:39 |
| [#31] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 係囉, 又真是諗唔到市面上有邊隻錄音是無經過EQ處理,包括cpu成日提嘅個健Celine Dion新作 |
george1977 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.1 |
2011-01-03 12:49 |
| [#32] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 unless superior tech, 2omni mic set at the magic spot, with all the lucky you get EQ, compressor, limitor, editing just common tools If no eq=snap shot eq+ tools=cut shot this is commerical world, every label add their MSG to pop out from others 私房菜吾落味精，都落香料，吾落香料，都揾有機香草，就好似eq甘，落多落少，用胆定石，好錄音你就過瘾兼吾口渴。 |
TISvili11 正式會員 183.xxx.xxx.80 |
2011-01-03 13:12 |
| [#33] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 3.0 - Room Equalisation The term "room EQ" is very misleading, especially if you assume that all the anomalies within the room can be dealt with, without having to resort to room treatment. In the old days (pre DSP), if a room had a problem, you had to make or do physical "things" to correct it. Absorbers, resonators, diffraction gratings, heavy curtains, thick carpet and speaker placement being just a few. Now, all we have to do is set up a measurement microphone and let the system loose. All the problem areas will be cleaned up and we will have "perfect sound forever". Right? Wrong! This is one of the major misconceptions that people have of digital EQ systems. A simple statement of absolute fact is warranted ... You cannot correct time with amplitude An equalisation system cannot compensate for acoustic effects that are time related. No-one would attempt to create a "time-aligned" speaker system by applying equalisation - it wouldn't work, and the creator of such a travesty would be the butt of a great many jokes - and rightfully so! Reflections within a room are an effect of time, and no amount of messing around with the amplitude (level) of a signal can fix a problem that is a direct result of a time delay - even if done at specific frequencies. In fact, there is absolutely nothing you can do at the source that will have an effect. If an acoustic signal reflects off a glass door, the only thing that will stop it is to turn the signal off. Naturally, any other acoustic signal from any source will also reflect off the glass door. Can EQ fix this? Of course not. One would be quite mad to imagine that it could. I have seen claims that a DSP can "fix" room modes and other anomalies at a fixed position, but the claimants fail to point out that such a fixed position may only encompass a few cubic centimetres. Also missed was the fact that our hearing removes many of the peaks and dips that can be detected by a microphone, and if one were to equalise based on the mic response, the result would sound worse than one could possibly imagine. However, there is one exception ... see below. A time delay will cause problems over a wide range of frequencies, but is likely to be most troublesome where the time is in direct relationship to the wavelength of the affected frequencies. It is because specific frequencies are affected that it may be assumed that a filter circuit might help, but this approach has neglected to consider the real problem. Just imagine how we would all laugh at a motorist refilling the petrol tank because his car had stopped, having completely failed to notice that it stopped because it crashed into a tree. For some unknown reason, people take the application of EQ (which changes the amplitude of specific frequencies) to correct time issues quite seriously, in much the same manner as the motorist just described. Hmmmm! The velocity of sound in air (at 22°C and sea level) is 345m/s, so the wavelength (λ) of a 345Hz signal is 1 metre. If a bidirectional sound source is positioned 500mm from a wall (as shown in Figure 2), any signal at 345Hz will be reinforced by the reflection of the rear radiation from the wall, because the reflection has travelled an additional metre and is in phase with the forward radiated signal. The reflected signal adds to the direct radiated signal. At 172.5Hz, the reflection has still travelled an extra metre, but the reflected wave will partially cancel the original signal because it is now 180° out of phase. The same effects occur at all frequencies whose wavelengths are multiples or submultiples of 1 metre (2m, 500mm, 333mm, 250mm, etc.). How can this be equalised? Quite obviously, it can't be. As the frequency increases, the number of peaks and dips also increases. Figure 2 - Bi-Directional Loudspeaker, 1 Metre from Wall If we analyse the end result of such a reflection, we see a comb filter effect. Distance between comb notches is determined by the time delay, and the relative amplitude of each notch depends on the losses the reflected signal encounters. If the rear wall just absorbs the sound then no reflection is created - the problem does not occur (this is one correct way to deal with such issues). Note that for the sake of discussion, the speaker is assumed to be acoustically transparent. The idea is to show the basics rather than to become bogged down with the complexity of any room reflection. Even with this simple analogy, the number of anomalies created by a single reflection is already at the limit or beyond the capabilities of any equaliser, whether analogue or DSP based. In reality, there will not be one but a multiplicity of reflections from ceiling, side walls, floor, rear wall, etc., etc. ... and all with different frequency response characteristics. The end result becomes so complex that it is impossible to equalise such a large number of problem frequencies - even assuming for a moment that it would be sensible to do so. Some readers may recall a time when "direct - reflected" was not only an advertising slogan for one manufacturer, but the speakers were set up more or less as shown in Figure 2. Let the reader make of this what s/he will To make matters worse when room reflections are involved, every location in the room will be affected differently. It is quite obvious that application of multiple different EQ settings simultaneously to a single driver is not possible. In Figure 3 (based on the example in Figure 2), the single reflection has been rolled off at 6dB/octave above 1kHz to account for the fact that high frequencies are easily absorbed. This may be over-optimistic for some reflective surfaces, but is sufficiently realistic for the purpose of demonstration. Without the rolloff, the deep notches continue up to the highest frequencies, and get closer together as frequency increases. **************************************** the above message quoted from this link http://sound.westhost.com/articles/dsp.htm  |
batmanames04 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.114 |
2011-01-03 14:35 |
| [#34] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 其實好早之前已經有 correction in time domain 嘰equalisation, 應用上好簡單, 只係用inverse嘰非對稱嘰FIR impulse response 同音樂做convolution (一般普通嘰只係用對稱嘰只能單單做到freq嘰correction), 除左做修正亦可以同時模擬其他環境嘰效果, 不過要用好powerful嘰DSP用好多MIPs, filter tips要夠長, 最好係長到足夠cover RT (所以本身已經有room acoustic treatment點都會好D, 但越差嘰環境效果越明顯), 我個人用後處理嘰方法比較少MIPS限制, 但做 time correction 亦只係用 2048 filter length / channel, 我個人覺得效果已經好唔錯, 同時修正喇叭同房間反射, 不過正如所說, sweet spot只有一點.. |
長長影子 正式會員 119.xxx.xxx.148 |
2011-01-03 15:16 |
| [#35] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 batmananes04 A very thoughtful and detailed post you had put up, I hope at least there are a few readers would appreciate what you have written and understand the technical detail in you effort. I never encourage EQ to be used permanently as part of the normal listening room. Many audiophile out there find EQ very useful otherwise and some of them has good listening room but use EQ to rectify certain speaker deficency more than anything else. But to be honest, unless it is a studio control room, how often end user has a room with proper acoustic treatment? As you have mentioned, I also believed a detail room measurement may be needed before apply any fix, whether a quick fix or permanent fix and definitely it is beyond the scope in Review33 blog here. Of course unless you have better idea to assist 'blacksun' which you like to share with everyone here. For blacksun questions about tile flooring vs timber flooring, we do not know his room layout, speaker position relative to the room dimension, what kind of objects he placed around his room, and he mentioned that he tried to use blankets and floor mat etc to experiment to see if he get different sound improvements and this is the most common no cost investigation, and this is why we must follow that no cost method initially to assist him to make some kind of sound improvement. I am sure no one will ever be happy to spend money for a room renovation and find out music from their system are worse off than before they start. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 15:34:12 |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.94 |
2011-01-03 15:32 |
| [#36] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 A few things that may help - Remove all spikes and cones from the system. Add a carpet. May also wanna change all silver cables to copper, if any. May even consider cables that roll off high a bit. Move the speakers around a bit for better position. Add more furnitures. It is a challenge but can be fun. :-) |
BenYC 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.178 |
2011-01-03 15:46 |
| [#37] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 there are many 2 channel systems with active or passive subwoofers using crossovers and separate power amps. just search audiogon and u can see many photos regarding eq u can tame the peaks but how are u going to fix the dips? """你可以搞room acoustic減少磚地板聲 但改唔到磚地板聲變木地板聲""" this is stupid. how will floor has sound? wooden floor sound what is this? |
cpu8088 正式會員 115.xxx.xxx.214 |
2011-01-03 16:08 |
| [#38] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 there are recordings with direct to disc methods without using eq, and there are recordings using microphone placements and shunt eq. most recordings are craps that is why there are not many good recordings around. also that is why a lot of people just go live music and accept deficiencies in recorded music as they mostly sucks. |
cpu8088 正式會員 115.xxx.xxx.214 |
2011-01-03 16:14 |
| [#39] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 thanks NAR hing s comment actually I am user of digital equalizer (ultra curve) and analog equalizer accuphase G18. I correct my room defect using diffuser , absorber, not equalizer . |
batmanames04 正式會員 202.xxx.xxx.196 |
2011-01-03 16:15 |
| [#40] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 this is stupid. how will floor has sound? wooden floor sound what is this? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 咁祇係証明你唔係用耳仔聽HiFi囉 |
MDLP 正式會員 220.xxx.xxx.13 |
2011-01-03 16:24 |
