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[#1] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
cd player 用來拾音,dac用作分析/處理,如果不用Transport,用cd player 是否只需著重個「頭」,如cdm9/cdm12... thx!
eagles1984
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61.xxx.xxx.3
2008-11-29 18:00
[#3] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
No, the transport is really important, otherwise, who will pay 30k for a transport
accphoto
個人訊息 會員
219.xxx.xxx.209
2008-11-29 22:16
[#5] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Even jitter can be corrected at DAC, but DAC can't re-create the information loss in reading stage, think about it.
hercules
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219.xxx.xxx.180
2008-11-29 23:53
[#6] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Agree!!!!!!
eagles1984
個人訊息 會員
61.xxx.xxx.3
2008-11-30 00:01
[#7] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
如果會用 computer as a source, or ipod as a source (via wadia itransport, or coming goldmund ipod dock) ge 話,
又唔怕 rip songs from CD ge 話,
CD transport 可以話存在 ge value.
因為花近 100K ge CD transport,
都未必可以將 jitter 降至最低.

sugizo
個人訊息 會員
58.xxx.xxx.24
2008-11-30 00:29
[#8] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Computer As Source 其實都唔係100% bit transparency, 唔同 sound card, 或同一 sound card, 唔同 program (foobar/cplay) 已經唔同哂聲, 點都有manipulation 加鹽加醋, 最大賣點只係方便.
hercules
個人訊息 正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.180
2008-11-30 00:36
[#9] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
jitter ge 產生 (CD transport 內).
1. laser 頭, 拾音頭不潔.
2. laser 頭, 拾音頭有靜電
3. 膠 laser 頭, 拾音頭.
4. CD面 ge 靜電.
5. CD 膠tray ge 靜電.
6. psu ge 干擾.
7. CD面 ge 花痕.
8. transport's clock and dac clock sync ge 問題.
9. CD transport 抗共振 ge 能力.

以上大把問題,
有邊部 CD transport 可以攪得晒呢??
sugizo
個人訊息 會員
58.xxx.xxx.24
2008-11-30 00:42
[#10] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
或者要尼類 device 先可以造到 接近 0 jitter.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tascam-HD-P2-Portable-Voice-Digital-Field-Recorder-HDP2_W0QQitemZ160300864013QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item160300864013&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
但唔方便
sugizo
個人訊息 會員
58.xxx.xxx.24
2008-11-30 00:47
[#11] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
May I add I few items that contribute to jitter:

a) inadequate power supply to oscillating crystal
b) power supply to the clock circuit
c) power supply to servo, error correction mechanism
d) power supply to cd transport digital output circuit

A good CD transport addresses power supply problems and you do have to pay 1000 times more to get a bespoke voltage regultor that is 100 times less noisy that a normal one that costs 50 cents.

you can try to minimise jitter, but you can't get it down to zero. You know why, the error mechanism isn't perfect and CD doesn't spin flat, it wobbles.

But the down side of having separate dac is the interface between cd transport and dac. the 75ohm coxial and 110 xlr cable. Even if the cable have the exact impedance, the connectors most of the time aren't. That also create jitter.
sybaritej
個人訊息 會員
210.xxx.xxx.22
2008-11-30 14:56
[#12] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
hercules said : "Computer As Source 其實都唔係100% bit transparency, 唔同 sound card, 或同一 sound card, 唔同 program (foobar/cplay) 已經唔同哂聲, 點都有manipulation 加鹽加醋, 最大賣點只係方便."

CAS can be bit perfect & 100% transparency. The reason why different program is related to jitter and noise. You can set you PC without any 加鹽加醋.

It does not have to be expensive or complex CAS. People have reported very good sound with low noise eeePC as transport. And eeePC is really cheap.

CD transport technology is mature. Manufacturers know how to make good CD transport but not able to sell it at low cost. This is due to technology limitation of CD as a media.

Memory card & SSD storage is a much better storage media and that sensitive environment (e.g. vibration, dust, electrical noise etc.). Manufacturer can make very high quality memory player at low cost. It is just a matter whether they want to do it.

Solid state storage already replaced CD as audio storage for low end. There is no discman on the street. Younger generation won't have audio cd player at home at all.

It is just a matter of time while high end audio will go for memory storage.
3zone
個人訊息 會員
219.xxx.xxx.111
2008-11-30 17:02
[#13] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
3zone hing, totally right.
Nowaday, SSD and flash memory cards' price become cheaper than 1 year before.
You can see the 32GB SSD sell under HK$800.00
And those memory card has no mechanical problem,
and most of the memory card has aluminium case to isolate RFI EMI. Also, they are all high speed, much much more speed model are coming.
That's why eeepc can act as a good source,
coz, it is using SSD as a hard-disk.
Simple connect to a HQ DAC, can get a good result.
Actually, its quite like Meridian G-08, data read form CD-ROM, then store in RAM (buffer), finally to DAC, FIFO format.
I think there has many many Hi-end companies will produce SSD player in near future.
sugizo
個人訊息 會員
58.xxx.xxx.24
2008-11-30 22:29
[#14] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Audio file play by computer and using solid state storage is two difference matters, don't mix up.

theoretically any playback ways can attain bit perfect and transparent, as all ways have difference costing and difficulties to overcome the evil.

For disc based playback system, optical pickup and vibration is major evil, making of 24K gold disc, XRCD, LPCD, SHM-CD, Blu Spec CD, all aimed to improve optical pickup, but I ripped the SHM CD sampler, both Normal CD and SHM CD can give identical data file from EAC, and Laser Beam of transport also subject to aging problem, replacement become very hard tasks as the transport no longer produce.

What I wanna point out is, people using CAS maybe superstition above bit perfect and transparent, Ripping just overcome the first tripping stone, optical reading error, by using offline reading and correction technique, but PSU is very noisy compared with consumer audio component, the layout and shielding is limited by standard PC acrhitecture, and studio sound cards are not aimed and optimized for audio playback, but also handling audio input, use multiplexer for multi-channel operation, DSP chipset for signal processing for audio production tasks, plus interference and data communication protocol within OS, latency, playback software, audio I/O interface, the output data and the original data is not identical, even same computer configure, same audio file, foobar and Cplay will give difference sounding, data must be altered by the software even you are not intended to do so (upsampling etc.) or two identical computer also will not sound in same way too.

Why we still living with evil?? For mass production, stamping of CD just around one dollar per disc, at the volume of over few thousands, even 4G flash media able to deliver under hundred dollar, still the way far from a plastic optical disc. That's the reason music industry still deliver music to us in optical disc.

But when the music produced and target to smaller group (like audiophiles), the total cost of making optical disc will be higher per disc, and higher initial cost, as the glass master for disc stampimg is very expensive, if you only made few hundred disc, to share the cost of glass master, minus sale channel and other expensive, the disc must be selling over hundred recover the cost, then we may deliver by using CD-R at home studio, or deliver by digital download.

I never against as I'm using digital media delivery like download Hi-Res like 2L, Linn, Hifitrack, HDTF, RR, but computer is not the ideal place to handle playback. Transmission interface also evils in digital audio playback, SPDIF is also jitter inducing interface, AES/EBU 110 Ohm and double wire also intend for studio using to ensure connectivity between difference equipments in studio, it's not the best too, custom build studio equipment will employ better interface like SDIF2, which may not able to connect with other equipment, but as long as using in house, it's far better than above mentioned interfaces.

So the future to be out of computer, a box of player with no movable part, only flash memory and D/A stage, seperate and quiet standalone power supply unit, the data feed from NAS/ terminal and connected by gig-Ethernet or firewire, able to buffer a full album in few second. All in one box to eliminate external digital interface, using I2S or even better interface in future, upgradable by interchangable DAC board, and flash software upgrade, to handle future format, other than PCM and DSD, the Linn Majik DS is very close to this idea.

Meanwhile, CAS is still affordable and full of fun and flexibility, but it's not the destination or end point we should settle.
hercules
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219.xxx.xxx.159
2008-11-30 23:09
[#15] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
I think that a lot of C-hing have the experience that the sound is diffenent when us the same CDP with optical output and Coaxial output.

Also when usng different CDP with coaxial output the sound is not the same.

Although by theory, the same digital signal should have the same sound (using the same DAC), in fact the answer is not.

CDP is mainly made for reproduce the audio signal even have this problem.

How above a computer that did not focus on the reproduction of audio signal?

I can say that generally, CDP is still better than computer at this momment.
DYreal
個人訊息 會員
203.xxx.xxx.214
2008-12-01 00:01
[#16] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Yes, CD player is important and a few very good transport out there. A good CD player is important. As I said, Jitter and Noise are the 2 major factors impact performance. That's why CD transport quality matters.

Let's put computer aside in this arguement as computer has its problem.

But if we put solid state storage to replace CD transport, a lot of problem causing jitter and noise disappeared.

- no motor, no moving parts, no vibration, no electrical noise cause by motor.
- no jitter cause by optical pickup
- not sensitive to vibration

using same quality of circuit, it is much easier to produce a solid state memory player to beat cd player.

Manufacturer is not producing it due to commercial issue, not technical issue.

Computer audiophile is still early stage. I think in general CDP is mature and probably be better in general at this stage. But specialized computer audio player (probably audio player using embedded computer in it) will beat CDP soon.

Computer audiophile is pushing traditional hifi manufacturer to produce memory player. If they are not responding to customer demand, they will finally disappear in the market.
3zone
個人訊息 會員
219.xxx.xxx.111
2008-12-01 01:33
[#17] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
I'm using Olive Musica music server and extremely happy with it, was thinking setup a Mac Powerbook but not happy with the effect after trail test.

So Olive is clean cut solution for me, better than high-end CD transport, may need other frameware or hardware and configuration work to optimiize the result.

I think Red Book CD, HDCD & SACD are facing end of the road, internet download will be the future, think twice before buying expensive CD transport.
nomanslam
個人訊息 會員
124.xxx.xxx.125
2008-12-01 17:22
[#18] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
其實我想知道,用了dac 之後,是否cd player 只著重個「頭」,總之用CDM9,就出CDM9的聲,WADIA同SONY無大分別?
eagles1984
個人訊息 會員
61.xxx.xxx.3
2008-12-01 19:34
[#19] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
係有分別.
1. 不同的 PSU 部份, 有冇 filter.
2. switching power supply or 傳統火牛.
3. 漏磁率.
4. 機內空間大小, 共振時影響比率.
sugizo
個人訊息 會員
58.xxx.xxx.24
2008-12-01 20:04
[#20] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Sound style is mostly determined by DAC, not the transport.

Transport determine the quality of sound.
3zone
個人訊息 會員
219.xxx.xxx.150
2008-12-01 20:50
[#21] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
I believed CD transport is very important. I'd tried a Marantz DVDP, CEC TL51 transport and Wadia iTransport + iPhone as transport feeding into my MF A324 DAC.

All of them gives different sonic characteristics and among all, CEC sounds the best in terms of detail and sonic-balance. For iTransport, I regard that to be a kind of computer-based and solid-state device as iPhone is basically a small-sized computer with no moving part. I put high hope on that, however, I was disappointed when compared to CEC, which is on similar price range. I sold my iTransport after 2 months of ownership.

I think at current stage, CD transport still got an edge over computer-based system at sub-10k range.

Just my 2 cents
francosk
個人訊息 正式會員
203.xxx.xxx.62
2008-12-01 21:04
[#22] 用了dac是否cd player 不太重要?????    
Well, thanks for reporting iTransport performance.

My experience with eeepc is very good.
3zone
個人訊息 會員
219.xxx.xxx.150
2008-12-01 21:19
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