review33.com: 影音天地: QUAD ESL speaker

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[#4304] OTL Bomb Paul was magnanimous (and confident enough) to let me take my AUDIO PROFESSOR amp for a match. To me, comparing this way is more meaningful than most A/B comparison of little import. Although the Audio Professor has only 1 6C33 per channel as opposed to GM20's two, it employs output transformers. This was custom built by AP, and not really that old. Mine had more vintage parts inside than another that I have seen in HK, whether custom built or further modified I don;t know. The difference in sound is interesting. In terms of transparency, of course the GM20 is better, but the gap is not as big as one may think. Driving N804, the biggest difference one hears is in the dynamics. The AP had the better bass weight and gives a needed solidity to the dynamics. After warm up, the OTL is really fast and punchy, though the punch lacks true bottom. Brubeck's Time Out is really satisfying. The AP is not so overtly exciting, but its dynamic swing has more depth and one feels crescendo's and decrescendo's more the way they should be felt. I'd say the AP does better in classicals, and OTL favors jazz and less instruments. In terms of color, most of us there preferred the AP, but after subsituting an Amperex 6922 for the Sovtek in the OTL, the OTL showed much more color AND actually more extension in the bass! Really satisfying too. The only comparison CD we had on hand was 劉雅麗. cpsjj is still the champ in this song (but only when he's using the V69). But if OTL is used (and subsituting the Sovtek 6922 seems a must), I'll give the edge to the N804. The B&W Nautilus series are usually not particularly emotive, but they are really transparent and grainless, when partnered well. Of course, ESL has its own charms, but we are concentrating on the issue of TRANSPARENCY here. The weakness of OTL was also truly revealed. A good day for me.		doctorjohn 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.210	2007-08-30 12:31

[#4305] OTL Bomb
On that note, I'd like to mention that whlee and I visited cpsjj the day before yesterday.

After the re-bias of the GM20, the sound is really significantly better! Too bad the Magra PLP is not there anymore. I miss that!

I am always curious what would happen if cpsjj moves the ESLs into the office, Maybe even more transparent!

doctorjohn

正式會員
218.xxx.xxx.210

2007-08-30 12:38

[#4306] OTL Bomb
Recently discussed with Patrick and I start to believe a single pair of ESL should be placed in a smaller room no larger than 400 sf for better performance. Perhaps something like 13.8' x 20.8' sf would be ideal.

rcwy,

Is the proposed 13.8 x 20.8 area similar to your studio?

dkyyu

正式會員
210.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-30 14:23

[#4307] OTL Bomb
Incidentally, the ESL is 1 foot wider than Maggie on either panel. Assuming 12 x 20 is almost ideal for Maggie 3.5 as we all wittness in Sai Kung, the 14 x 21 looks more like in the business.

dkyyu

正式會員
210.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-30 14:31

[#4308] ESL

dkyyu,

It is clearly stated in the 57 manual that volumetric capacity of the listening room should be no larger than 5,000 cu.ft. Assuming the height is 11', that limits the maximum area to 454 sq.ft. And I think it should be much smaller than this, say 250~300 sq.ft.

14'x 21' is of course not a good ratio as both side is a multiple of 7. May be 13'x23' (299) or 13'x19' (247) would be ideal. I always like prime numbers in this respect.

What say about DJ's experience? We will have to fight to defend our fame!

cpsjj

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.124

2007-08-30 14:48

[#4309] ESL

"Space" and "anti-space" are relative
______________________________________________

DJ,

Logic is reverse in the anti-space relatively. So the good guys become bad guys and good sound turns bad sound.

Wowww…. World War III is looming over the horizon!
_______________________________________________________________

The harbingers are spare when 2 countries are at war.

cpsjj

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.124

2007-08-30 14:56

[#4310] ESL

Dennis,

I am always sensitive to room dimensions. 400 sq. ft. is a very big room, far too big in fact even for double Quads. IMHO 13 x 17 or 12 x 16 is just about the optimum size for the single Quad, be it 57, 63 or 989. Don’t forget by the way, a 200 foot listening room is by no means small by any standard.

To be honest, I think your sitting room is perfect for the ESL57. What is left is to find the best placement to unleash the full potential of your system. By the same token, CP should have his Quads inside his office rather than outside of it, although the partition walls do need a bit of reinforcement to augment the bass definition.

limage

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.192

2007-08-30 15:16

[#4311] ESL
CP,

I don't know and we ain't hear the AP yet. I think DJ has his point and I am totally satisfied with my GM20 and TX-102 together only when plugged with the good ECC88 or E88CC such as Mullard or Telefunken ECC88, short and decent silver cable and bias setting to the factory standard 30ma.

I was told by Patrick that he is fully happy with the GM20 and I also believe you are enjoying too.

The only and very minor drawback in my system is the slightest feeling of slower pacing with GM20 like what you'd described to me before. I would say perfect if the system sounds 3% faster.

After raising the bias of GM20 from 25ma to 30ma, now I could easily live without the BBA or any active device.

The BBA really sounds good and I am going to try it with my DVD, CD and also my coming resistive passive preamp DIY project. Would you like to have a try on the BBA with your German amp and Music First TVC? With more facility such as variable gain and volume control, I think it stands a higher chance sounding better than the smaller MF in some difficult loading system.

I shall be available tomorrow, you can pick up my BBA at my place when passing by Hung Hom. It's boxed and plugged with GEC and telefunken tubes.

dkyyu

正式會員
210.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-30 15:21

[#4312] ESL
Limage,

To make more room for the QUAD or double, I have placed an order for a new set of smaller size sofa to replace my space consuming 3+1 sofa in the coming November. I could try out more positions by that time.

Frankly, the inherent problem of my room is its narrow shape. I was thinking about LS3/5a when discussing the shape of the listening room with the developer. Now I have to place my ESL in close proximity to the side walls in order to allow a reasonable distance apart. I also have to solve the cable problem when pulling out the speaker to the middle of the room like yours.

Headache.

dkyyu

正式會員
210.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-30 15:48

[#4313] ESL
Hey Uncle D,

Did Aunt B give you a hard time on moving around the furniture? I guess the easiest way to cure your headache is renting a spacious industrial flat near your home instead of messing around with your own flat.

hehe....cheers.

dtb

正式會員
202.xxx.xxx.121

2007-08-30 16:34

[#4314] ESL
Hi, dtb,

Are you David? Changing ID again?

dkyyu

正式會員
210.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-30 17:04

[#4315] ESL
yeap, but I did not change my ID. I just switched on an old computer in office and it happened to use my old R33 ID, which I rarely use for quite a while.

dtb

正式會員
202.xxx.xxx.121

2007-08-30 17:13

[#4316] ESL

As reminded by feikeung, September 4 will be the 2nd anniversary of this Quad ESL thread. It is indeed interesting to look back what we have written here and what actually had happened. I was a later comer and my first posting here was on 2005-11-13 when you guys broke feikeung's Graaf GM20 and I tried to comment on it. My second posting was on 11-14 when I said you guys were the group I most envy on. Now I'm one of you, having both the ESL and the Graaf, and we are still writing on the GM20!! It seems time has frozen and there aren't much has happened, other than we guys get together more often and built up a great friendship. When we often brag how smooth and transparent the ESLs are, we humbly acknowledge that there are many other speakers, vintage or modern, that excel in this area and again there are so many people out there that can put a system as cheap as the ESL and reproduce great music that we admire. Yet that there are 2 things that we can proudly brag on. The first is of course we are the thread that attracted the honourable limage to tip his toes into this R33 murky water, as he said here is about the cleanest area that he was prepared to get into. And the second is over the last 2 years we dug into even the tiniest detail of the ESLs which is so enlightening and that not a lot of people have the opportunity or the persistence to do this. What's next in the coming 2 years. Well chaps, we've got a few ESL63 to fix and do we not have the obligation to find out other ESLs and promote their development?

cpsjj

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.124

2007-08-31 11:19

[#4317] ESL

I am highly honoured to be a member of this thread as it continues to remain a truly gentleman’s forum for the gentleman’s toy.

limage

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.3

2007-08-31 12:03

[#4318] ESL
Yesterday when I saw pcs100, he related his frustration in restoring the ESL63. I hope you fellows persist and by the next anniversary we would get to hear a good pair!

doctorjohn

正式會員
116.xxx.xxx.23

2007-08-31 14:36

[#4319] Grand Illustions
＞The corollary is that much of the "transperency" written here is just imagined, no more.
Whether QUAD ESL/ OTL combo is capable of delivering the most transparent sound compared to conventional cone speakers/tube gear with transformers is immaterial. We are just a bunch of deprived and depraved old farts who happened to have chosen the same or similar topic and are trying to get a kick out of it. There are certain aspects of ESL/OTL we constantly brag about and “believe in”. Some of these notions may be nothing but GRAND ILLUSTIONS.
QUAD ESL and OTL amps are good topics because they are plagued by a lot of idiosyncrasies. It is the rather temperament nature of the equipment that makes this hobby so much fun.
Ken Sil and I arrived at the Police Head Quarter about the same time and we were both late. I saw the Jaguar catalog he brought along for Limage and I commented that Jaguars were buggy. “New ownership has taken over Jaguar and some of the buggy issues are history. However, if they are problem free then there will be no fun” he added.
I learn something every day.

feikeung

正式會員
121.xxx.xxx.133

2007-08-31 14:43

[#4320] ESL

Anyone going to this?

I'll be there on Thursday the 27th.

cpsjj

正式會員
219.xxx.xxx.124

2007-08-31 15:31

[#4321] ESL
CP

Is Aida coming?
I saw the poster.

John

Gingers

正式會員
218.xxx.xxx.4

2007-08-31 17:24

[#4322] ESL63
Yesterday when I saw pcs100, he related his frustration in restoring the ESL63. I hope you fellows persist and by the next anniversary we would get to hear a good pair!
---------------------------------------------

Folks,

I'm afraid you have to hang on to your horse if you want to audition the restored ESL63. For some reason, the sound quality is still not up to my expectation. It is far cry from my reference speaker the ESL57. It just lacks the clarity and definition an esl should have. Not to even mention about the glamor of the 57.
Since I have done everything on the penals (same method I applied on Allan's 63 which he claimed satisfaction) I suspect the fault is in the electronic portion. I then dismantled all major component and replaced all caps and part of the resistors in the signal path. The only cap I didn't replace is the 10pF 6KV cap in the last stage on the cap board because I can't find them. Diods, caps and resistors in the eht board have all replaced to ensure sufficient juice for the circuit. I approched Dr. King for help and he suggested that one of the 220uF 50volt cap serving as filter should be replaced with higher grade film type cap. Any brother knows where can I buy that kindly advise. Following are some photo I would like to share with you folks.

PCS100

正式會員
221.xxx.xxx.26

2007-09-01 10:53

[#4323] ESL63
part of the major boards removed from speaker