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| [#963] QUAD vs Magnepan Good day, everybody, I had a choice of ESL989, ESL63 and ESL57 when I decided to separate from box speaker a year ago. Now I end up with 3 pairs of ESL57 merely as a matter of personal favouritism on its string, brass and vocal reproduction. I have no idea who can does the sound stage better because my ESL is still in a mess. This will change after coming week. If I could have afforded a much bigger house today, I'd probably put up another pairs of ESL2905 and 7 feet Maggie without a moment of hesitation. I keep mentioning Limage's Maggie because I highly appreciate his skills and experience on panel speaker placement that is rather stimulating to me. No toe-in, 55% distance away from rear wall, couple of years experimenting on different position. The only thing he didn't do is turn his studio upside down. I guess his dipole Maggie is being exploited to over 95% of its full potential whilst most of us could only achieve 30% to 60% despite months and months of hard work. Now a moment of truth from me, all ESL and Maggie are true legend and they have one thing in common, dipole panel speakers except the ESL57, which I consider as 1.5 dipole requiring slightly different treatment I believe. As a die-hard Linnie in faith of garbish in garbish out, I vote on the vinyl software and front-end as being the most important part in my audio chain. But I must point out that, with recent exposure and learning from you guys, I have to admit that there are more new values from the rest of the audio chain. Certainly a new day to me. Limage, One issue spring to my mind last night. Is your studio purposedly built to the magic ratio 2:3:5 (H:W:L)? |
dkyyu 正式會員218.xxx.xxx.132 |
2006-08-19 13:32 | |
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| [#964] QUAD vs Magnepan If you talk about soundstage, depth of soundstage, punch, etc.. one pair of QUAD to one pair of Maggies.. it is almost impossible for QUAD ESL to blow away Maggies, but blow water is possible. ------------------- I think you are comparing apple with oranges. Each speaker have its unique musical charateristic. You can not say Quad ESL lost the battle because it can't reproduce deep punch bass. It's all depending on the type of music you listen. If you are very much into Rock&Rolls, Quad ESL definitely is not your cup of tea. |
Pcs100 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.40 |
2006-08-19 14:24 |
| [#965] QUAD vs Magnepan The singers seem to be much more forward and well illuminated by a spotlight with the music instruments all falling into their respective places. ---------------------------- Excellent description !!!. That is exactly what I have experienced in my previous music room with my present ESL57. |
Pcs100 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.40 |
2006-08-19 14:36 |
| [#966] QUAD vs Magnepan Feikeung, Is Mogami speaker cable good for QUAD or Maggie or all panel speakers? There are plenty model around, quite confusing. Any advice? |
dkyyu 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.248 |
2006-08-19 14:52 |
| [#967] QUAD vs Magnepan I stopped fiddling with audio gear many years ago. All I want now is to listen to music and have peace of mind. However, I have a suspicion that QUAD ESL-57 is not too picky on cables. The Maggie's load is almost purely resistive so good quality copper with high current handling capabilities will do, I think. Do take my words for it. I'm an old fart and have not been up to date with the current development in the audio industry. I can lend you some Gotham 50040 to play with. I still have a couple of hundred meters sitting in my buddy’s warehouse. However, I suspect neither Gotham nor Mogami will do the Quad’s or the Maggie’s justice. To get the last drop of juice out of them, you’ll probably need something much better. |
feikeung 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.219 |
2006-08-19 15:36 |
| [#968] QUAD vs Magnepan ＞Do take my words for it. Should have been: Do not take my words for it. |
feikeung 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.219 |
2006-08-19 15:37 |
| [#969] QUAD vs Magnepan Dear drwkng, Let me try to answer your very difficult question. “we have to agree is what is 'acoustically balanced' first.” The room, or rather, the speakers have to be coupled to the room and the coupling has to be acoustically balanced, which means devoid of any severe resonances. There will still be resonances, no doubt, but a +/- 5 db across the bass region seem more than acceptable in most applications. Resonances above 100 Hz are much easier to tackle. Carpets, curtains or acoustic boards all work. “if the room and speaker coupling is acoustically balanced, the system will be more sensitive to changes in the rest of the chain” Yes, if we look at it from the micro point of view. On the other end, the macro side, once the speaker is well coupled to the room, the rest becomes much less of a problem. Given today’s standard of high-end audio, we no longer have to concern ourselves over frequency response, damping factor, harmonic or TID distortions etc. There would still be audible differences when we change the speaker cables, or substitute a solid state power with a tube one, it is then purely a matter of taste, or personal preference. The system will sound good anyway. Simply put, one cannot really expect to turn a lean and flabby cello, for example, into one with full body and blossom just by changing the cables or amps alone. The pity is: many fellow audiophiles tend to indulge themselves on the micros in stead of the vital macros. Regards from limage |
limage 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.202 |
2006-08-19 18:43 |
| [#970] QUAD vs Magnepan Is your studio purposedly built to the magic ratio 2:3:5 (H:W:L)? ___________________________________ Dennis, Yes and No. My room was basically 12 x 20.5 with a ceiling only 7.9 in feet. I moved half of the side wall to give a width of 13.5 feet at the intended listening end of the room. Much to my chagrin, I have to move my seat the other way round. I did calculate my room dimension to make sure no major resonances may reside. |
limage 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.39 |
2006-08-19 19:33 |
| [#971] QUAD vs Magnepan (Shit) CP - :P Please don't omit the first part of my statement, which is copied and pasted below: If you talk about soundstage, depth of soundstage, punch, etc.. one pair of QUAD to one pair of Maggies.. it is almost impossible for QUAD ESL to blow away Maggies, but blow water is possible. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Richard, it doesn't make any difference, does it? I think you get me wrong again. What I mean is I am going to expend my best effort to create a better-than-the-Maggie soundstage with the ESL57 in order to overthrow your presumption. There is no intention to take your words out of context. Pardon my poor English if that is what it is. |
cpsjj 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.108 |
2006-08-19 21:44 |
| [#972] QUAD vs Magnepan There is no intention to take your words out of context. Pardon my poor English if that is what it is. --------------------------------- CP, OK - I pardon you! :P |
rcwy 正式會員 221.xxx.xxx.225 |
2006-08-19 21:58 |
| [#973] QUAD vs Magnepan Of course, I was kidding. :) |
rcwy 正式會員 221.xxx.xxx.225 |
2006-08-19 22:11 |
| [#974] QUAD vs Magnepan dear limage hing, i don't like to ask difficult questions but i find it more fruitful to talk about something objective. "The room, or rather, the speakers have to be coupled to the room and the coupling has to be acoustically balanced, which means devoid of any severe resonances. There will still be resonances, no doubt, but a +/- 5 db across the bass region seem more than acceptable in most applications. Resonances above 100 Hz are much easier to tackle. Carpets, curtains or acoustic boards all work." yes you are right. +/- 5 db is not too bad. i would say +/- 3 db but what is 2 db among friends. but it is not that easy to achieve though. not those i have measured anyway. yes once again you right, the effect will be more prominient on the low end. if your speaker can't produce 50 hz or below, you have lesser of a problem. if you do, then either you arrange your speaker in such a way that the direct sound dominiate ie close field and have your secondary sound sources way out ie speakers very far from reflective surfaces, you will otherwise have to deal with room modes. there is no way about it. of course if your speaker placement can be closed field then it is a way out all be it a 'chicken out'. "Yes, if we look at it from the micro point of view. On the other end, the macro side, once the speaker is well coupled to the room, the rest becomes much less of a problem. Given today’s standard of high-end audio, we no longer have to concern ourselves over frequency response, damping factor, harmonic or TID distortions etc. There would still be audible differences when we change the speaker cables, or substitute a solid state power with a tube one, it is then purely a matter of taste, or personal preference. The system will sound good anyway." sounding good is not a problem. is it? i agree with you that too many of us spend far too much time on secondary effects ie cable etc and don't spend oungh time on the primary effects e.g speaker placement, amp etc. the problem is that we still hear the effects of cable etc all be it secondary in a non acoustically balanced room. so coming back to my hypothesis, ie an acoustically balanced room should be more 'sensitive' to changes to the rest of the system than a non acoustically balanced one,i still think it has high a chance of being right though. it does not mean the rest of the chain is more important. what you said thus far seem to confirm this hypothesis rather refuting it though! do i get your meaning right? |
drwkng 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.28 |
2006-08-19 23:56 |
| [#975] QUAD vs Magnepan Richard, I think my OTA ESL57 is fully burned in and I am satisfied with the performance. How are your speakers? Powercord |
powercord 正式會員 82.xxx.xxx.66 |
2006-08-20 05:44 |
| [#976] QUAD vs Magnepan an acoustically balanced room should be more 'sensitive' to changes to the rest of the system than a non acoustically balanced one,i still think it has high a chance of being right though. it does not mean the rest of the chain is more important. what you said thus far seem to confirm this hypothesis rather refuting it though ______________________________________________________________________________________ drwkng, I fully concur with what you said, likewise same applies to limage and I believe you two are not in contradiction. This hifi system phenomenon is a typical illustration of the Pareto theorem. One single element, i.e. the speaker, probably accounts for over 80% of the overall sound effect, the rest tails off, may be amps another 15% and cables and what not 5%. So it would not be unwise to spend most of the effort on the most important element rather than wasting time on something with a diminishing return, albeit they do account for something to make the system perfect. Soundwise, of course the speaker will be most sensitive in its best position, focal point, coupling position, whatever you call it, functioning at its full 80% and therefore able to reveal the full effect of any change in the rest 20%. But the 80% sound effect is still very dominant. But if the speaker is in an awkard position and contributing say only 50% of the overall sound effect, then the originally 20% will now become 50% and their effects will be very significant, although of course the ability to reveal their true effect by the speaker is also proportionally discounted. The Pareto phenomenon, or ABC phenomenon is everywhere in our daily life. One observation I still can't understand. 1% of the taxpayers accounts for over 60% of the tax receivable but the government is spending most of its effort on the remaining 99%. |
cpsjj 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.116 |
2006-08-20 11:43 |
| [#977] 回覆(40) 80/20 Rule - Pareto Principle The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial. In Pareto's case it meant 20 percent of the people owned 80 percent of the wealth. In Juran's initial work he identified 20 percent of the defects causing 80 percent of the problems. Project Managers know that 20 percent of the work (the first 10 percent and the last 10 percent) consume 80 percent of your time and resources. You can apply the 80/20 Rule to almost anything, from the science of management to the physical world. You know 20 percent of you stock takes up 80 percent of your warehouse space and that 80 percent of your stock comes from 20 percent of your suppliers. Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production. It works both ways. _____________________________________________________________ There are so many names now given to the Pareto Theorem. Business analysts now call it long-tail system. Any arbitrary factor will add to the long tail and make a contribution, albeit very small. In hifi terms, we keep adding factors like stands, wooden blocks, cable clips you name it. I'm sure they all make a contribution, but in iota amount. Believe it or not, Google and Amazon are actually aiming at the long tail to make their business successful. |
cpsjj 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.116 |
2006-08-20 12:02 |
| [#978] Review: Magnepan MG-3.6R Gathering? When & Where? To meet blue blood USA & Germany?  |
Gingers 正式會員 221.xxx.xxx.160 |
2006-08-20 19:04 |
| [#979] Review: Magnepan MG-3.6R Gathering? When & Where? ------------- Soon, my friend. American King with Yugoslavian heart is on his way to meet the British queen and the German priincess!!! |
Pcs100 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.73 |
2006-08-20 19:27 |
| [#980] Big gathering Yes, Ginger,let's plan for a big gathering, old friends and new. What for doesn't matter. |
limage 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.171 |
2006-08-20 19:41 |
| [#981] Big gathering limage For me. All ready to go. Just pack my toys and go :-) I hesitate to ask, will you allow your Rosewood Rogers to meet my vintage toys and his LS3/5A brothers in my place? :-) Last time, my tube amplifiers did not heat enough :-) John |
Gingers 正式會員 221.xxx.xxx.160 |
2006-08-20 20:34 |
| [#982] Big gathering limage If your Rogers did not sing for a long time, it will probably 痰上頸 :-) Kidding :-) John |
Gingers 正式會員 221.xxx.xxx.160 |
2006-08-20 20:38 |
