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| [#41] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 direct to disc ? 數埋手指都唔多過2打啦 我就唔信單靠擺咪唔落EQ就出碟! 仲死雞撑飯蓋?! ^.^ |
george1977 正式會員203.xxx.xxx.1 |
2011-01-03 16:25 | |
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| [#42] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 batmanames04 I still own an Ultra Curve EQ, but normally digital EQ do not provide a good sound even though it work in some special circumstances. The way you have your system setup with some room treatmment is indeed far better than using EQ and I agreed, but most audiophile would not have the know how or experience to do this kind of thing. Sometimes when they leave it to the many self claimed professionals and may still end up being disappointed. The difference between a true professional and a self claimed professional is. The real guy can tell you the result you expect before he starts and with a proper plan and the result must meet your expectation the job is completed. The self claim guys simply put treatment components here and there in your room and hope for the best and please do not ask them what they did will works, they just know it. I would be very sceptical about those people, and wouldn't you? Unless a listen room is custom made design by true expert with lots of proven studios and hifi rooms designed that can impress people. But how much treatment put into a room has all to do with the affordability by the end user. Remember, most audiophile would not really knows what they are looking for in such design, Sometimes their house or apartment size are simply not suited to have a custom design room. There are so many reasons that majority of audiophile would not go to such extend, but of course with a few exceptions would really go for the expense and can afford to have such room built. This is I assume they are already putting the suitable speakers and amplifiers and the rest to suit. However, this is outside our scope for such discussion here. Majority audiophile will op for different cable for different sound, different equipment and speakers, add electronics such as EQ were the majority and you and I cannot deny the fact this is the best they are willing to go through. When we discuss about room treatment, this is no longer a topic on this thread. We just have to wait for blacksun to provide us more information before we can go further from here. Then again, remember no matter what we write and try to provide help, there will always be some background noise posting some negative comment other readers may not appreciate. I often pull out of a discussion as a result. After all, we are here for leasure and not a money making exercise. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 17:42:24 |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.94 |
2011-01-03 17:36 |
| [#43] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 BTW, Using EQ to attempt to correct room acoustic problem is different to using EQ in a mixing and mastering session. What I try to say is some audiophile uses EQ because what they hear sound good, and this is all that matter for their own enjoyment, there is nothing wrong in doing this for individual enjoyment. Using EQ for recording is to richen up the sound for a vocal or for specific instrument and sometime to compensate some weaker frequency picked up by microphone. Everybody's hearing may not be identical and we should never label those audiophile who use EQ are wrong. The same thing they can also argue without EQ, music can never sound as good, so I believe those who are hard up against other people using EQ should drop the subject. For those direct to disc recording, even if the engineer do not use EQ, how do the engineer put so much dynamic range onto an LP without some kind of inbuilt compression to prevent needle from jumping off the track at high dynamic range. I need some answers from those who involved with this kind of project before. How can anyone say only direct to disc are good and everything else are no good? I yet to know what equipment he used for playback, they must be crap if he said anything non - direct to disc are crap. In an orchestra recording, for direct to disc recording engineers may be using less mic and placed them at a further distance away from norm in order to overcome the maximum dynamic range a LP can handle. how do engineers solve the problem of some 120dB+ dynamic range for an orchestra on LP which at best be able to handle 75dB or there about dynamic range. May be we should start up a new thread for this kind of discussion. |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.94 |
2011-01-03 18:06 |
| [#44] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 thanks Nar hing, very good message |
batmanames04 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.217 |
2011-01-03 18:12 |
| [#45] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 今日同裝修師傅傾呢單野,佢冇玩音响, 不過佢話兩樣野照計冇分別,兩樣都係平面,要反射就乜平面都反射, 佢估唯一一樣分別係兩樣野底下,柚木下面係蠟青,磚下面係英泥,蠟青點都係有小小軟. BenYC兄, 你建議飛釘換線,我都係咁諗,下一步會做,依家play多陣,等機行耐d,睇下關唔關奈冇run in. 飛釘直頭想做好奈,以前冇事果陣都想,坐地喇叭一條友上釘腳又要落釘牒,好鬼辛苦. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 20:55:03 |
blacksun 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.181 |
2011-01-03 20:49 |
| [#46] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 In batmanames04 post [#33], the following statement was mentioned. "The velocity of sound in air (at 22°C and sea level) is 345m/s, so the wavelength (λ) of a 345Hz signal is 1 metre. If a bidirectional sound source is positioned 500mm from a wall (as shown in Figure 2), any signal at 345Hz will be reinforced by the reflection of the rear radiation from the wall, because the reflection has travelled an additional metre and is in phase with the forward radiated signal." This reminded me a long time ago when I tried to set up a pair of Quad 63Pro electostatic speakers simular to fig 2 illustration of bi-directional speakers. In order to position the speakers to enhance certain frequencies such as the soloist voice, I would move the speakers backwards and forward until the voice reflected from the FLAT AND UNTREATED WALL behind until the voice more focus and re-inforced. Indeed I also notices the highs may be affected but not significant enough to worry about because there are more peaks and dips in higher frequencies, after all, we are still listening to the fundamental direct sound from the speakers at the listening position. We cannot make it perfect in the real world. Having placed the speakers at a suitable distance to the wall behind, we then adjust the 2 speakers separation distance until the hole in the middle effect of the stereo image disappeared (that is left to right sound image are no longer separated and the sound becomes continuous from left to right say). We then try some slight toe in angle so that we get that field of depth effect (its like as if the strings are more up front, then the wood wind section, then brass horn and finally the percussion section at the back). The toe in is in fact the minupulation of phase angle when sound may no longer be reflected from the wall behind on the same axis and hence re-creating this illustion of the field of depth of a orchestra. It is useless for me to keep writing, a person need to try this out to appreciate what I am saying. To sum up: speakers placement (if bi-directional), we need to consider (1) the distance between the speakers and the wall behind and use this distance to reinforce the sound (frequencies range) we wanted to hear most, (2) the separation between the two speakers is to make the stereo iage continuous, (3) the trial and error toe- in angle may be suitable to adjust the field of depth of the sund image. Adding all these together, you sound system may end up having some very interesting result in sound. Happy listening 最後修改時間: 2011-01-03 21:26:24 |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.99 |
2011-01-03 21:22 |
| [#47] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 i suggest try cut 2 pieces of real wood similar to your previous floor board and put it under your speakers, if it works, try change the spike plate to a wooden one too |
mahi 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.4 |
2011-01-04 00:53 |
| [#48] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 ＞＞ 不過佢話兩樣野照計冇分別,兩樣都係平面,要反射就乜平面都反射 ＜＜ Not neccessary. Different materials may absorb sound energy in different magnitude. They may also create different resonance at different frequencies. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-04 02:54:14 |
eddiey4k 正式會員 218.xxx.xxx.20 |
2011-01-04 02:47 |
| [#49] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 dynamic range compression and expansion is different from eq working on different frequencies also mixing different tracks with different sound level is again not equivalent to doing eq |
cpu8088 正式會員 115.xxx.xxx.214 |
2011-01-04 06:00 |
| [#50] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 CPU8088 wrote - "dynamic range compression and expansion is different from eq working on different frequencies also mixing different tracks with different sound level is again not equivalent to doing eq" *************** Of course they are different thing, I know these things well. I wrote just to respond to what you said about only direct to disc are not crap but the availble music are. You may not know there are recordings far better than your Direct to Disc with or wthout compression, dynamics and with or without EQs. I also happens to know. It is pointless to go further from here if you only pick on one or two points and make an issue out of it. No time to make such discussion. |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.99 |
2011-01-04 07:36 |
| [#51] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 I agree with 'eddiey4k' comment. Also we need to know the room size, what is placed in the room, what shape is the room before begin to have a better understanding what is going on. |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.99 |
2011-01-04 07:40 |
| [#52] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 Haven't read such a quality discussion for a long time. Rare. Thanks NAR and batmanames04. I learnt a lot. |
zbigniew821 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.143 |
2011-01-04 13:22 |
| [#53] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 Whenever I visit a home that uses non-wooden/carpet floor, I tend to keep my mouth shut because I cannot stand the sound reflections, or acoustics of that home. I feel very very tired listening to this kind of lively sound. It sounds like a yelling match. I was just explaining to some visitors to my apartment the other day the importance of having absorbing materials in the room so that it sounds warm & comfortable. For now, I suggest blacksun get a lot of books, get a few more cushions on your sofa, get a small piece of carpet in front of your speakers, and get a lot of friends visiting your apartment. |
Kenny 正式會員 146.xxx.xxx.21 |
2011-01-04 13:39 |
| [#54] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 kenny I have the same experience as you for non-wooden floor |
batmanames04 正式會員 61.xxx.xxx.217 |
2011-01-04 14:03 |
| [#55] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 NAR; I can appreciate your speaker positioning effort, but in reality, it is difficult. I have owned bi-polar speakers for 10++ years. They weight at least 80++ lbs each. All I could do was to have a back wall distance of at least 3 ft, and side wall distance of at least 6 inches, and then do something about it with sitting positions, or spikes, or absorbing materials (just lots of stuff around the listening positions to minimize the reflections). One time, after my speaker positioning, my listening position was 6 ft from the speakers, it still sound really good. It is like having a 65 inch TV in a very small room. Just tone down the brightness then enjoy ^_^. |
Kenny 正式會員 146.xxx.xxx.21 |
2011-01-04 15:06 |
| [#56] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 Dear NAR 大哥, Nice post again! Thanks! SK Tung |
sktung 正式會員 124.xxx.xxx.46 |
2011-01-04 15:54 |
| [#57] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 Kenny, I see what you mean, nevertheless what I posted is for reference only. The end users have to have lots of time for fine tunning, but if space is limited to move speakers around, then enjoy the music instead and not to worry too much. However, a proper positioned pair of speakers may enhance your appreciation more to some of the finest recordings that are available. This is what we, the audiophile are striving for. Many audiophile appreciation a proper stereo image which comes with a good sound stage, the field of depth so that the reproduction would give you that 3 dimensional effect in your listening room. In general we speak in terms having a good classical music recording, but getting a good source may be limited and it is even harder when audiophile try to understand what they suppose to listen to and this may be a problem. What I am saying is the general understanding of what is the correct sound and what is not is very scattered among different users. I guess we are all in the same boat as far as hifi listening is concerned. It takes many years of listening to appreciate what we try to manage our own system to produce the sound image which is closer fit to the real live experience, but the recording that we are listening to may let us down. We then may have to blame the recording engineers not doing their job properly to make a recording which allow us to not only to enjoy the music we are listening to but also as a good tool for audiophile to fine tune their system to the optimal level. This is another issue which is difficult to solve because everyone standard of listening is different. I guess no one dare to say their listening standard should be used as reference. I hope you can see my point. 最後修改時間: 2011-01-04 16:58:25 |
NAR 正式會員 219.xxx.xxx.94 |
2011-01-04 16:48 |
| [#58] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 其實好早之前已經有 correction in time domain 嘰equalisation, 應用上好簡單, 只係用inverse嘰非對稱嘰FIR impulse response 同音樂做convolution (一般普通嘰只係用對稱嘰只能單單做到freq嘰correction), 除左做修正亦可以同時模擬其他環境嘰效果, 不過要用好powerful嘰DSP用好多MIPs, filter tips要夠長, 最好係長到足夠cover RT (所以本身已經有room acoustic treatment點都會好D, 但越差嘰環境效果越明顯), 我個人用後處理嘰方法比較少MIPS限制, 但做 time correction 亦只係用 2048 filter length / channel, 我個人覺得效果已經好唔錯, 同時修正喇叭同房間反射, 不過正如所說, sweet spot只有一點.. the above quoted from 長長影子 hing no matter how good advancement in dsp technique, tag filter length, fast processor , you cannot avoid relected wave summing incindent wave in real time domain even though using any expensive room correction audio electronics.  |
batmanames04 正式會員 180.xxx.xxx.249 |
2011-01-04 17:11 |
| [#59] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 application of multiple different EQ settings simultaneously to a single driver is not possible. In Figure 3 (based on the example in Figure 2), the single reflection has been rolled off at 6dB/octave above 1kHz to account for the fact that high frequencies are easily absorbed. This may be over-optimistic for some reflective surfaces, but is sufficiently realistic for the purpose of demonstration. Without the rolloff, the deep notches continue up to the highest frequencies, and get closer together as frequency increases. (articles from elliot sound)  |
batmanames04 正式會員 180.xxx.xxx.249 |
2011-01-04 17:19 |
| [#60] 裝修完,由柚木地轉磚地,用相同器材低音少左 木板對聲音反射點都唔似磚面咁硬, 首先明呢樣先, 喇叭箱為何大部份都用木做, 仲係唔明的話, 可以玩過第樣, 唔玩Hi-Fi, 慳番好多錢 |
254mm 正式會員 203.xxx.xxx.233 |
2011-01-04 17:35 |
